[00:00:02] Hey everyone. This is Lynn Vartan and you are listening to the apex hour on SUU's Thunder ninety one point one. In this show you get more personal time with the guests who visit Southern Utah University from all over. Learning more about their stories and opinions beyond their presentations on stage. We will also bring you some new music to listen to and hope to turn you onto new sounds and new genres. You Can find us here every Thursday at 3:00p.m. or it on the web at SUU.edu/apex. But for now welcome to this week's show here Thunder ninety one. Point one.
[00:00:48] OK. Well welcome. Here you are with the APEX hour. It's this Thursday it's 3:00p.m. You're listening to KSUU thunder ninety one point one. And we have just been having a beautiful sense of inspiration today. And I couldn't be happier that I have my guest here in the studio. Zainab Salbi welcome to you. And welcome to the radio show.
[00:01:13] Thank you. What a pleasure. Thank you very much.
[00:01:16] We have been following your work here on campus for some time now and we so enjoyed your talk this morning. And I just have to share with our listeners just this beautiful moment that we had walking in. We were stopped by a young man who's from the Congo who is studying here for just three months and was particularly taken by your talk. But I'm sure things like that happen to you all the time sometimes. Well one of the things I'd like to start by talking about on the show is we we just can sort of free form and do a lot of different things. You were just speaking about the importance of a value driven lifestyle. And you talked about it this morning and we were just talking about it when we were talking about your gift. Can you talk a little bit to our listeners about that and what that means to you and how you feel about it.
[00:02:09] Well I mean what I mean is you know as an activist and women's rights person and all of these things I always used to like preach about values. You know people should do this and that and all of these things and it's like what I call self-righteous values. And I thought of myself as this wonderful person and I'm like right. And they're wrong and all of these things and I actually came to realize that really I need to look into myself and say I'm like consistent between what I'm speaking and what I'm doing because it's so easy for example to speak about women's rights you know and freedom and all of these things and my right. But then in the meantime here I am buying clothes without asking who made it. Did you treat the person who made it well. Was it where they had dungeons and some place in a dark place or were they actually paid livable wages not only minimum wages livable wage and in good working conditions for example. That's just an example. And I realized no I lived a lifeline a lifetime talking about women's rights and demonstrating all of that. But I actually was buying clothes. That's just a simple example. Right. So Buying clothes without that consciousness about it. And so I and this is my inconsistency so I think all of us have this is an consistency's within our lives. We preach something but we don't ask ourselves Are we really really doing what we are preaching right. So if you're against for example you know prejudice, are you begin prejudice against someone who is not agreeing with you your values are so you know it's like so constantly. So I had to turn the question I embarked upon myself about my upon my life trying to change the world. I traveled the world and traveled conflict areas from Congo to Afghanistan and Iraq and Rwanda. All of that only to realize I need to change myself as well. That changing the world entails me really changing the world not going and talking about it and that so now what I call a value driven lifestyle. It means I really go what I mean I love clothes so when I go shopping I asked the person who is selling like can you tell me if they if how would the person who made it got paid or. How was your ethical values while your environmental practice. Most of the times people don't understand what I'm talking about and I was like What can you call your manager. And I like I make a point and usually if I feel like then if that if the if the corporations know we're asking they will adjust to us. Yes you know we feel that we're victims of all these other people who are making decisions. I'm saying we own it. We take control of our own power and we make changes in our lives and whether it's governments or whether it's corporations or whether the big bosses or whatever it is they will actually adjust because they want to our our business and they want our voice so so instead of wanting to change that will change yourself and the world shall change around you. Thank
[00:05:05] I love that. And even with just the fashion thing. I mean you just start asking questions.
[00:05:10] I really do.
[00:05:11] That's way to go I'm thinking you know is this I mean I love fashion.
[00:05:16] Me too I really do.
[00:05:17] So I'm thinking how can I how can I implement this a little bit you know and if if it's that maybe well I can ask questions. I mean anybody can ask questions.
[00:05:26] Absolutely and then I start researching right and So while what are the fashion designs that actually are more environmentally conscious. Is it possible that any brand that is 100 percent ethical but their brands who are trying and when they see that there is a positive feedback from the customers they actually it gives them even more incentives and it brings up their brands in it you know. So now I have like this whole genre of brands that I have to research and I have stores and where I am and I know that this store actually has really good values in this store and that sometimes say it's not a 100 percent process by the way. But now before I just jump and buy I really asked myself I really really really do ask like Is this a loving thing to do. I know I really want this shirt but can I live without it. If it's not ethical you know can I get away with it. Is that just an accessory that I really want out of my own greed. In this moment or do I need to the discipline of saying no I really want something ethical and that questioning of myself. It made me actually to become more minimalistic more aware of how I spend my money. More You Know More cautious you know. And it actually became much better for me financially as well because now I ask myself Do I really need to do that or not.
[00:06:47] You talked in your talk today about a lot about that about the asking yourself Is this something done out of love or or does it produce that that love and all that the compassion and so you really let that go into all areas of your life and it has sort of brought about at least materially a little bit more of that minimalist outlook it seems.
[00:07:10] It has. I mean if I started my life thinking you know dividing the world they are good. I mean they're bad I'm good. You know this culture is oppressive culture this culture is free culture this culture is that that culture is like I divided the world into good and bad right and then you know then I realize over time that the people who I thought of as good.
[00:07:33] Yeah.
[00:07:33] I say my community or some you know enlightened the group of people actually. They hurt me as well. And there were bad things there as well and it devastated me because it's like because I idolize you idolized this community as perfect and this community as imperfect this person is perfect and this person is bad right. And then I realize over time that the good the bad and the ugly is actually everywhere it like that is a very simplistic division of the world as good and bad or of my reality of people. And more importantly which is the Good the Bad and The Ugly is in myself and I moved from being judgmental of others to actually questioning myself and that questioning made me more compassionate person of the others that I don't agree with. Actually you know it's like oh it's not easy to implement these values. And it made me more patient in engaging in dialogue and in ways that I no longer label people as you know racist are bigots or sexist or whatever. I really don't you know like now it's like what is the reason behind your behavior and explaining to them how it makes me feel rather than labeling them because that doesn't doesn't result in anything you know it results in and dividing us rather than bridging us. And so is it just a shift of mindset where I needed to own my actions and inactions for us see the good and the Bad and The Ugly in me. And that helped me see the good and the bad and the ugly and the complexities of other people around me and our own humanity and our on Earth. But that made me believing much more that we actually can have dialogues and build bridges of communication between us. It's no longer a theoretical discussion it's now a very real one for me.
[00:09:21] In that we've touched on this a little bit at lunch. You talked about that realization and that understanding of what you may have perceived before as bad and we sort of talked and in fact Kourt who works with APEX was talking about activism and I know that In fact in your new book I ran across the part where you say you recognize yourself as an activist and you have been recognized as an activist. How do you feel about that term is that term still something that you connect with or now that you've sort of gone through this transformation as you mentioned to sort of understand the complexities of it more. Do you prefer not to use activism but more humanitarian. I mean does it have a different meaning for you now. What do you think?
[00:10:12] So I'm not into labels. You know I sort of I really don't care about them actually So I I call myself an activist and it doesn't matter. It doesn't bother me at all. But my activism changed and my call out for activists is to also reflect on what the meaning of activism 2.0 or 3.0 or I don't know if we are in the 4.0 generation I don't know. But but the point is before for example before I used to implement my activism by demonstrating and carrying my bullhorn and chanting slogans and all of these things I still join demonstrations you know just for the record if needed so I don't stop that. But it came out of a self-righteous and self anger aspect of me like I am right and you are wrong and I'm demonstrating against you. And when I started implementing these issues like asking myself on my part of this? You know and I'll give you example about that for example I always preach forgiveness and those who did not believe in forgiveness I always thought like what backward people they are what horrible people they are they don't believe in forgiveness. And I would like so I thought of myself as such a good person because I believe in forgiveness and they are such bad people because they don't believe in forgiveness and to be very very honest. I mean it's a very simple thing. A boyfriend broke my heart and I just couldn't forgive him. And you know I just like I was hurt. I really was hurt and I just was more angry at him than forgiveness was the last thing on my mind. And then I was like I can't. Then I realize oh I'm talk about the value that I don't even know how to implement in my life I've been giving speeches about forgiveness but I've never forgiven anybody in my life. And then I had to ask myself what I need to learn the meaning of forgiveness in my heart. And I had to ask myself Have I betrayed myself. And I understood that part of me that has betrayed me and actually understand what is coming from it came from a very insecure place in me you know wanting to be loved. So I felt bad for her and thus forgave her now and then I could forgive him so easily right now like I forgave him long time ago. But now when I talk about political forgiveness between right and left black and white Hutu and Tutsi ethnic group and that ethnic group I actually really for me it is a meaningful one in my body so I call my activism now it's coming out of the core of my spine rather than the wideness of my chest is no longer the slogans is much more the humbleness of oh I really understand how hard it is to forgive. But it is possible and I really came to believe that we can forgive even when not asked for forgiveness.
[00:12:53] Beautiful. I just love that I love that your as you say your call to activism has taken that transformation and how you're recognizing it and putting it out there so well in this show you know I'm in love with world music. And so it's time for our first musical break. All day we've been listening to this great playlist on Spotify called Woman's World. The Six Degrees of global women in music so it's a great playlist. And what drew it to me is that one of my favorite Brazilian female artists is on there. And we're going to listen to a song of hers called Calmady. And this is the APEX our KSUU you thunder ninety one point one.
[00:17:01] All right well welcome back everyone. You're listening to the apex hour KSUU Thunder ninety one point one. We are here in the studio with Zainab Salbi. Welcome back.
[00:17:13] Thank you. Great to be back. The next thing that I'd love to get into is your writing. We've been celebrating your newest book which is freedom is an inside job and we were so lucky to get some advance copies the official release date is I think next week.
[00:17:33] October 2nd
[00:17:33] October 2nd. We love October October 2nd. And so I've already dug into it. We just received it maybe 48 hours ago. And I've just been enjoying it so much. And and I really would encourage everyone listening to get it. Again it's called freedom is an inside job. Before we get into the specifics of this book I'd love you to tell me a little bit about your writing process if you don't mind. I know a lot of our students listen and we have a lot of aspiring writers. What is that process like for you. You know just maybe walk me through it a little bit.
[00:18:11] Well it has three phases. I always say so the first phrase is just me writing and.
[00:18:20] That's the first phase.
[00:18:22] Well yeah. That means like I mean I'm not talk about my life experience I but I'm just like just honestly sometimes I close my eyes and I open the computer and I just type what I really want to say.
[00:18:34] Wow. That's so cool.
[00:18:34] Yeah just like pouring of thoughts and emotions and whatever it is just like without inhibition just writing.
[00:18:46] I love it.
[00:18:46] Some good music always helps me to have music it inspires me it lifts me up it triggers the emotions and so then that's phase one. It's like it's just dumping you know of everything out there. And the second phase is that I look at that and then I was like OK let's see what I can keep. What Makes sense what doesn't make sense what goes in here when it doesn't go in here. And I start working on organizing it basically so but that's how I go where I am a chaotic person and I don't like structure. So that's for me it works for me.
[00:19:20] Yeah.
[00:19:20] Some people like to start with structure first which is and no I'm not saying I don't have structure I want to say I want to say this point but to get me to this point I actually just let myself free flowing experience and from there because I don't want to be inhibited and get stuck in the structure. So I say I want to make point x I let myself express anything I want to and then I started looking like OK this goes and this section this goes in this section this point goes in this section. And so that's the next phase when I start taking a more organized shape in a way you know but it's not that I'm saying that there's no organized shape at the beginning. It's just I let myself loose and not be restricted.
[00:20:05] It's very organic.
[00:20:06] Very organic. And from the organic I then start organizing it and becoming more disciplined about it. And the third process is even polishing it more you know which is you know making the point clearer you know honing down giving more examples all of these things. But what I discovered is that I need to have space between them so I can't do it all. Like let's say in each phase I do it. I need to leave I need to leave and go and do something else. Sometimes it's about just going and exercising for an hour sometimes it's reading a book cooking whatever it is and then coming back to it. But it's always I need a break in between. Sometimes I give myself a few days of break just so I can look at something else and then come back to it you know so that that impacting you the most important thing. I think that is weird but it's real for me is when I'm writing I can't hear other people's voice. You know I actually really go into an isolated phase in which I just stay at my place and I'm just in and in myself and I can say like days alone.
[00:21:22] Wow.
[00:21:22] You know just. And I like I can't sometimes people want to talk with me over the phone for something else like I'm so sorry I'm just in this very inner process that I just cannot. You know in all my books. You know I would like lock myself and my room and not lock myself but I'd be like hide there and just isolate myself from the world and I'm just going inward completely. Before then I can come outward of it and give myself a break then go back into the inward process and that break helps me develop the what I'm trying to articulate even better.
[00:21:59] That's amazing. And are you also a journalist. A Journal writer. Like a diary writer. I mean is that something that you do when you do this when you're writing for your books and larger projects but you do also do it on a regular basis for in just normal day to day work as well do you do that stream of conscience writing or is that mostly reserved for the book writing process for you.
[00:22:22] I used to do the stream of conscious writing on a regular basis. Now I do it only when I feel like it's because not every day I have some content. Some days I'm just numb. I get my days just like I mean like there's some days where my brain is like Zzzzzzzz like there's nothing.
[00:22:39] I know that feeling very well.
[00:22:41] So there is nothing to write about in such states. So I let myself until I'm ready to write and then I do I just write it and let it. And and and I learned that I actually store everything. And that's that's was creativity I mean like I never thought of myself as a poet. For example ever. And I happen to know Alice Walker is just like she's the poet and I'm Absolutely not. And then one day I was just literally meditating and just painting. And just like I never I didn't even aspire to be a poet. Right. I was just meditating and being and and painting and suddenly a line started going in my head.
[00:23:28] Wow.
[00:23:28] And I just started writing it and then I called Alice and I was like I'm shy to tell you this but like is this poetry is that OK. And she's like yes keep going. So if you tell me right about now I cannot. But sometimes I'm playing I'm doing something fun and it comes. So I know I'm a big believer that we need for any creative person whether you are a writer a musician an art any artist that the free flowing the creativity that juiciness they're not being stuck that I have to deliver that actually the playfulness the rest all of that living life is part of the sadness oh it brings a lot of creativity. Yes. Now like I need these things especially sadness it's funny it's like when I'm like there's happy phases or I'm just happy I'm like oh I really need some sadness here. There's that creativity in here. So it's like you know you let yourself feel all of it in order for that juicy stuff to come out.
[00:24:31] That's beautiful. I think that you mentioned that when you were talking just now meditating and I'd love to get into. I want to get back to the book but I'd love to get into a little bit about that. I think that meditation is important in your life. I think I've heard and maybe another interview where you spoke about meditation and daily ritual and and maybe even yoga. Are these kinds of things. Tell us a little bit about that. That inward work and how that works for you and all that.
[00:25:02] Well I do do all of these things but I also as I said I'm like not a routine kind of person. So I do them and I drop them and I do them and I drop them. And I learned the following oh what I can tell you is that I used to create spaces for what I call self care. So how are you self care for yourself. Sometimes there are years in which myself care is an hour at the gym right. And sometimes my year of self care is yoga and meditation.
[00:25:32] Oh OK.
[00:25:33] So I change the patterns basically. But there must be a Zainab time right. Every day that is mine and no one can take it away from me because this is about the biggest thing I learned in the process of writing. Freedom is an inside job that I am the cake of my happiness.
[00:25:55] Oh.
[00:25:55] No one can give it to me and no one can take it away from me. People in my life are the cream. There's chocolate cream there's vanilla there is strawberry. They make myself indeed happier or more delicious cake. And they can if they go it's less delicious cake but that cake is me.
[00:26:17] I love that.
[00:26:18] Does It change my own perception. But there has to be a cake time every day you know which is only me and that rotated. So yeah I used to take retreats and now I used to take classes and sometimes I don't. So I learnt that as long as I have this I allow myself time to think and do nothing and that nothingness which is meditation basically you know could come in any shape or form however whatever your hobby is if you are painting for four hours that is then nothing like you're not thinking. Sometimes I live in New York so there's a lot of transportation involved in the car or the bus or the subway. I don't check my phone anymore. I allow for the nothing because I came to the conclusion that people I admire the most in my life whether it's Nelson Mandela or Gandhi. There was a huge period of their lives what they did nothing.
[00:27:22] Yeah.
[00:27:22] I mean think about Mandela 27 to 27 years in prison of nothing. No. No accomplishments. You know Gandhi used to spin cotton for six hours a day. That was his meditation on nothing. This is where you allow your brain to not think and to rest and whether it is breathing in and out and a car ride or whether it is doing nothing you know for whatever hours I no longer judge myself because we living in a very judgmental society. How much you accomplish what you have you done even if you sleep eight hours you are judged. Actually that's like oh I sleep only six hours. You know it's like you know like I tell you I need nine hours of sleep and here to really be happy. So there's like we are always competing it's like I accomplish isn't it. The truth is you don't. You don't. You like so I I give permission for myself to do what I really need to do and not judge myself by doing accomplishing that. At the end of the day I realize I'm still doing. It's just the pattern of it is not what the society tells me to do it I'm just doing good. I'm accomplished. Probably for you you probably see me as an accomplished person. I know.
[00:28:40] Definitely.
[00:28:41] You know well in my job sometimes I have days in which I'm just hiking and doing nothing. It doesn't stop me from accomplishing a lot of things.
[00:28:52] I find that to be so refreshing. I definitely find that to be true with myself. And it's so great to hear that and somebody in somebody else especially in today's world where as you said it's all about accomplishing how much we accomplish all these kinds of things. But I sort of nicknamed it my staring at the walls time. You know whatever that means it could be actually staring at the walls or it could be many other things but I sort of need that I think you know like like you I think people tend to tend to see me as like oh going all the time but it's really not that. And so to hear you also validate that not only just for me but for our listeners too. I think that that's really special.
[00:29:34] that's where Creativity that sort of magic happens and it doesn't have to be aware whether you're author or whatever even if you're saying business or math that's every. Every person out there who've done something in the world they allow that to play full time and the rest time. And that's where magic does happen.
[00:29:52] I love that. Well it's time for another song. We're going to dig into this playlist a little bit more. Let's see. We're going to take a listen to a song called spring arrives and the artist is Azam Ali. And again this is from that women's world playlist and you're listening to the APEX Hour on KSUU Thunder ninety one point one.
[00:35:17] OK. Well welcome back to the apex hour. We were talking here with Zainab Salbi about her new book Freedom and it's an inside job. And I'd love to tell our listeners a little bit more about the book. I think we've sort of been talking the topics of the book but if you wanted to go into a little bit more detail I know it's the week before it's coming out and so hopefully will inspire some people to check it out. But tell us a little bit more about what this particular book is about.
[00:35:48] Well you know what it started with me meeting a woman in Congo. And she said she told me about the horrible stories she's gone through a man gang raped of her and her daughters. And at one point she looked at me and she said I never told anybody but you my story.
[00:36:05] Wow.
[00:36:05] So I tell her just like so look I'm a storyteller. Should I which I tell other women's stories should I keep yours a secret. So she looks at me and she said if I can tell my whole story to the entire world I would. So other women would not have to go through what I have gone through. But I can't you can you go ahead and tell a story. now That really was the most humbling moment in my life because I realize I've been claiming I'm a women's rights activist talking about other women. And like we talk about her stories easily. But I really never owned what she's trying to say which is a connection between an individual story and the collective story that if I break my silence maybe other women would be spared from the pain I went through. And I realize even though I'm the humanitarian who is helping her and she's the poor woman I'm helping she actually has much more courage and consciousness than I did and I was hiding behind the victim's story. The other woman's stories.
[00:37:10] I see.
[00:37:10] So I realize I actually no longer can't talk about being women's rights or valuing these values if I actually don't own my own voice. So it started with telling my own story and breaking with my own silence about issues that happened in my life. You know from whatever my memoir or knowing Saddam Hussein being raped all of these things and as I started telling this story you know it's sort of a bit like there was a dark stone in my chest of anxiety.
[00:37:43] Wow.
[00:37:43] When I spoke my truth it sort of dissolved and it became a crystal so I was like oh this feels great. This telling the truth feels really good. And I actually was like I was keeping myself in my fear. I was the fear and I was the prison guard that keeps it as well. So I was like Oh so where am I not in truth in my life. So I sat looking at my relationships as like and I read through them. This is I am truthful and here this is no longer my truth. I sat looking at my work and saying my truth in my life. And then I sat looking into my on back history like my own behavior towards other people and saying am I in truth in my life. And so it's like it became an inward journey and every time I go about it it is hard. I struggle I care. I like cry like I'm like working on myself. But then I come out freer happier stronger so my life became just like that taste of freedom and the journey of freedom is actually hard but the taste of freedom is so delicious that it is actually worth going through that hard journey. And so that I kept on looking in myself and my and myself as an activist and myself as someone who travels around the world to help and care about women's rights all over the world. And then it's like it became an from an outward value to an inward value then an outward value. So now I do talk about forgiveness and beauty and you know success. But these notions got redefined in the process. You know from an inward journey. And then outwards. So that's what I'm that's what the book is about is that if we really want to live if you whoever you are what to really be happy and see happiness and see the world in peace then find the peace inside you. If you really want to have a fair and just world then make sure that you are living a just and fair life inside you. You this is the real issue between you and you. You know and then you and the from the relationships right in front of you. Right. So it's like it moved from this mega concept to a very personal concept and then now I still work in the world.
[00:40:15] Yeah.
[00:40:16] But my view is and my values and my my engagement with people who I don't agree with whatever has become much more compassionate and much different but it's different so I like stories I thought I used to think I'm ugly and then I try to like put the makeup and the clothes in order to hide and then the only way I could actually understand that I was beautiful was through a very simple exercise meditation exercise that a woman showed me to meditate in front of my bathroom mirror like this like no exotic places or exotic. I was finally I realized oh I'm damn beautiful. But it took like decades of my life to realize I'm beautiful and not some retreat. It's my bathroom mirror that helps me do that. And I talk about these things in the book.
[00:41:04] And I see that I can't I can't wait to read the it. I was only able to get you know a partial way through it. But when you started to do this process and realized that you wanted to do this process start this this this journey of questioning or redefining. I mean how did you deal with the fear of what you might come up against. Because I mean that's I would say they think that first many people would fight that and not be strong enough to sort of say I'm not ready to really look at what I'm doing wrong in order to see the good. You know I mean because you almost have to do that right. You're saying you kind of have to acknowledge your own either hypocrisy or this or complicit whatever behavior in order to then find this deeper happiness. How did you deal with. I mean was it scary.
[00:41:59] So it's scary. But here's the thing if you don't deal with it it comes and haunt you anyway. You know to kill Wilma Mankiller and an Indigenous woman who said like it's like you have a dark horse and a light horse and the courage of your life if you only put the leash on their light horse you know the good horse that is you know it's not that the dark horse it's not there the dark horse is still in the carriage its still leading. It's just you don't have control over it so it's constantly like. You know on that turn and it's like oh my god my anger just show up oh my god my jealousy just show up oh my insecurity. And then he just dump it because you're too embarrassed and it's too hard to look at it. So you just dump it and cover it up and you're like no lalalala just to like you know avoid it.
[00:42:49] Yeah.
[00:42:50] I'm saying change the process because it's going to hijack you constantly if you're not going to take control over it. So yes putting the leash on the dark horse is a hard process because a dark horse is disobedient and has insecurity all the while. But then you have to actually acknowledge that there is a dark horse in your carriage and also that's really hard. But it changes your life basically. Now you have that leash on both your dark horse and your you know light horse and then you're in control of your darkness. So it's not like there's no darkness and it's not that I'm impatient let's say or have anger issue or whatever. Yes I do. it's not like oh it is coming again. Okay Sorry. And others can no longer manipulate me or hijack me because they use this my own insecurity against me. See what I mean. So I'm saying is you have a choice you can preemptively do it do the work and get a charge of your own life. The good part and the bad part because you understand the bad part is not bad. You have to just need to learn how to control it and work with it. Right. But it's not like unless if it's unless if you you want to kill people that's different.
[00:44:09] That would be bad.
[00:44:09] But that that you have to really I don't know you should do something but like but like all of us have bad character. I saw it like this but sometimes it's helpful you know if you're in charge of it. Yeah. It's not helpful when it's in charge of you. So if you don't do it because it's too hard it's going to haunt you. If it's not in your 20s then in your 30s it's nothing or 30s and your 40s if not 40s then in your 70s and you will still deal with that. And I have seen enough people in my life that they are still dealing with it in their 80s because they couldn't deal with it in their 20s so I'm just saying be proactive go and do the work is actually worth it. It will help all your relationships and your career and your life. And don't shy away from looking at fear and the eyes when you look at fear whatever you're afraid of. When you look out of the eyes you'll see you can go out in the other direction.
[00:45:02] I love it.
[00:45:03] Where did you say that that Dark Horse white light horse came from because.
[00:45:07] Wilma Mankiller is an Indigenous woman who died a few years ago. I don't know which tribe she's from actually. But that's where I borrowed the concept from.
[00:45:16] That's a beautiful concept. I hadn't heard before and I I love it. I love the imagery. I love what it represents. That's amazing. Another thing along these lines that you had said that I heard somewhere with which I really like that you had said by acknowledging some of that darker side. Then you can actually use that as a help to somebody else because then you can you can recognize those things and other people and say yes I understand that I've experienced that. And so it actually helps you get more compassionate in other ways.
[00:45:49] Well so we live in a society where we only talk about happiness and perfection. And I have it all. I really like you know it's all good. You know and I don't know anybody in my life where it's all good. I just don't. No no please let me know. I would love to talk with them and learn. But. There are good days and bad days sad days there are you know angry days there are days I just want to cry and there are days in which I'm happy and on top of my mountain. You Know the difference is before I would only put values on the happy days. And then when I see someone happy and I'm not happy I may be like just like some especially social media does that to us because we only put the happy pictures in you know. And I was just like Oh that does make one feel lonely actually because you're like I'm not having what this person is having. And I'm like I as this person who is active in social media. They probably people look at me and they say this. So. So it's just sort of what I'm saying is that I changed my relationship I just like now and I have a sad day for example I don't resist it. I just like OK I'm having a sad day and I don't brush it to the side. I actually learn myself to feel it's OK listless loneliness is a good one. You know I like let myself feel loneliness and I was like OK I'm very low. I'm feeling very lonely. And I just get even choky talking about it you know. And so I let myself and I was like living my life of how loneliness and as I said understanding the feeling and my muscles and my heart and all of it. And then over a week you know it goes like oh I'm not lonely.
[00:47:33] Yeah.
[00:47:34] You know it's like oh this is not so bad actually. It's really good. You know I don't mind it is really good and then Lord and behold do you know you're no longer lonely and people come in your life and all of these things the only difference is that instead of panicking about that negative feeling I took it on and taking it on you actually learn about it and that learning not only help liberates you from it's from it's fear also but it's also next time I see someone someone who's lonely or someone is insecure or someone who's doubting themselves. I actually talk about I also I I know that feeling.
[00:48:10] Yes.
[00:48:10] I don't I don't like I understand the meaning of that feeling in my muscles. So my discussion with them now is compassionate discussion is out of understanding and out of like really patient because I know what that feeling is this is really awful. You know it may be different than there is in this meaning in my heart. But I understand it in my heart. And that creates new relationships and your compassion and new diet compassionate conversations because you're more empathetic and more vulnerable actually and vulnerability allows people to also shot their own vulnerability and it allows people to open up. And that's the secret of getting away from loneliness to start with. There you go.
[00:48:52] That is all this work that you've done and all of these things and especially the journey and in compassion I think is what makes you such not only an amazing writer and speaker but I have been completely ensconced in in your TV shows in the shows. In the project Zainab Salbi project and in particular the subject matters are so engaging and and since they soak you right in but the way that you interview and the way that you speak with people and the way that you draw them out is really extraordinary and just not only inspiring but but that ability to just go right in with them and also to draw them out. Are there future plans for the project is what next.
[00:49:46] There is and you know what I really encourage people is to actually check out the #MeToo, Now What? series That I did on PBS because it's sort of relevant for all of us as we are talking about these issues and my proudest work is as an episode where I talk to a woman who accused a man of groping her and a dancing floor as they were friends. And the man who got accused and how he dealt with it and how she dealt with it and you know and the reason I say it's my proudest fork because we are in a time in which we're just shouting angry slogans at each other and painful and all of these things. And here people who went through their journey. I mean it was very painful for both of them and you know she denied for 10 years and then she asked herself like what is that. I have to liberate myself from my anger and bitterness and I really need to understand what is restorative justice really means. And then he moved from denial to getting fired and having to ask himself well how why did I do this and really was forced to look into himself at his own insecurity and jealousy of other men and all of that. So the whole point is that by compassionate understanding we actually can get you know for the first time true dialogue and true conversation between an issue that is impacting most of us. You know #MeToo And how do we do that the only way you can actually hear his story is to like I don't necessarily agree with him or don't agree with him like it's just hear the person. The only way a person can tell you their truth is if you actually create a safe place for them to speak without judgment. Sometimes they are not aware of themselves sometimes they are aware of the source but you still want to get their truth. So you can actually understand how to deal with it. And same with her. So it's it's sort of being being able to listen without judgment. But it doesn't mean not agreeing or agreeing is just giving the person the space and the respect to speak truthfully about their truth. So you can engage in a dialogue from there but this shouting and blaming you did not be to all of us so our politics is doing this. It's we are crossing each other and not hearing each other and we need to evolve that into listening and hearing of each other.
[00:52:16] Right. And that show is #MeToo, Now What? And it's available online. I've seen a few of the episodes online and it's ongoing right now.
[00:52:28] It is not. There Is new is to come on in January of next year. So follow me on Twitter or Instagram and you'll see what's coming up next is a surprise.
[00:52:39] Oh great. I can't wait. Well that's right we definitely want to make sure everybody's aware of that. You can absolutely follow Zainab on Twitter on Instagram Facebook page as well and your Web site as well to find out all of what's coming up. One more musical snippet from this great women's World album. And I think we're going to do and this is that's the title of the song and it's by Sabel. And this is again women's world. And you're listening to KSUU thunder ninety one point one.
[00:57:06] OK. Welcome back.
[00:57:08] Well that artist was Sabel and this song is called Minha M I N H A and Neguinha N E G U I N H A. And this is the apex hour you're listening to KSUU thunder ninety one point one. We're in the studio finishing out our show. Zainab Salbi. I don't want to let you go. I want to keep you for longer. And we have our last year.
[00:57:35] Keep me keep me.
[00:57:36] I'd love to Take you show you the colors we have here in southern Utah. Next time for sure.
[00:57:40] I'd like to.
[00:57:42] We have our last little question that we ask all of our guests. Which is what's turning you on this week. What's turning you on right now. Any can be anything it's just kind of our last little personal little thing that maybe you're really excited about right now.
[00:57:58] I'm excited about going and hearing the performance of an album called musician of the name of a Desert Rose is a South African musician who is coming to New York California and touring the States. And I. I have to say I'm proud of being part of bringing them here because they sing sacred music.
[00:58:24] Oh.
[00:58:24] And from all around the world. And I was passing by somewhere and they were singing sacred music from Islam and I just you know I grew up I'm Muslim and I am still a Muslim and I like realized like wow islam is now days known as being awful oppressive terrorism all of these sayings and they have that whatever they were singing. Youssef ganas is the name of the guy I was just so profoundly beautiful and made me cry because it showed the beauty of an essence that I am familiar with so I'm really excited. I'm like really into that Desert Rose Remembrance it's my favorite album by them.
[00:59:01] OK. Desert Rose Remembrance I'm going to check that out because I'm not familiar with them so well that's the end of our time together. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing this hour with me.
[00:59:12] What a pleasure I loved it. Thank you.
[00:59:15] Yea and I can't wait to have you back again. And with that we will say goodbye from the apex hour again KSUU thunder ninety one point one. And thank you again for being here and have a great rest of your week.
[00:59:31] Thanks so much for listening to the APEX. hour here on KSUU thunder ninety one point one. Come find us again next Thursday at 3:00p.m. for more conversations with the visiting guests at Southern Utah University and new music to discover for your next playlist. And in the meantime we would love to see you at our events on campus. Find out more. Check out suu.edu/apex. Until next week. This is Lynn Vartan saying goodbye from the apex our here on Thunder ninety one point one.