Dr. Penny Minturn
Building Bridges
Date: October 25, 2018
Location:The Great Hall
Reflection | Video | Podcast | Photos
Biography:
Graduate of Arizona State University, MA and PhD. Dr. Christy Turner, committee chair. Bioarchaeology main focus. Worked for 25 years in the US Southwest and Egypt. Currently work for Defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency.
Research Interests:
Aging, Bioarchaeology, Forensic Anthropology, Skeletal Biology, Medieval Archaeology
Event Reflection
by Billy Clouse
On Thursday, October 25, Dr. Penny Minturn visited SUU to talk about her job as a forensic anthropologist, which has taken her everywhere from the southwest United States to Laos to Egypt. Her lecture, titled "Building Bridges," reflected on over 35 years in the field.
As a child, Minturn was given a book about an archaeologist, and at the age of 8, she decided it was what she would do with her life. By time she got to college, however, she decided to pursue other things, and a lack of interest in her classes led to her flunking out of college.
She later reconnected with her passion for archaeology. Minturn went back to school with a new energy, earning her Bachelor's in 1984, her Master's in 1994, and her Ph.D. in 2006. During her studies, she worked in the field, taught, developed a museum, and volunteered.
While showing photos of the places she's worked, including Mexico and Vietnam, Minturn explained that while on a mission, she makes an effort to reach out to the locals who help with the excavations. Her teams regularly engage in humanitarian work such as building schoolhouses.
After earning her Doctorate Degree, Minturn led the excavation of the tomb of Iuu in Abydos, Egypt. This ancient Egyptian city was where the first pyramids were built, and the interiors of them were decorated with wall paintings and hieroglyphics. Minturn noted the beauty of them, especially that the colors were so well-preserved that they appeared as if they could have been painted a few days before they found them.
In her current role as a forensic archaeologist and anthropologist for the DPAA-Central Identification Laboratory, Minturn leads missions to locate the remains of soldiers who went missing during war.
One of her most memorable moments from a mission happened during a project in the jungles of southeast Asia. Amid the heat and humidity, Minturn's team was analyzing an area larger than a football field, and she got the feeling she should check a different location. Almost immediately, she found evidence of human presence, including dog tags and a partial blood chit.
Although the days onsite can be long, Minturn said she prefers field work to lab work. Even after more than three decades, she gets excited every time she walks onto a site. She remarked that with her current job, she has the honor of serving her country and returning home the brave men and women who died fighting to protect the United States.
Dr Minturn Podcast Transcript
[00:00:02] Hey everyone this is Lynn Vartan and you are listening to the A.P.E.X Hour on KSUU Thunder 91.1. In This show you get more personal time with the guests who visit Southern Utah University from all over. Learning more about their stories and opinions beyond their presentations onstage. We will also give you some new music to listen to and to turn you onto new sounds and new genres. You can find us here every Thursday at 3:00p.m. or on the web at suu.edu/apex but For now. Welcome to this week's show here on Thunder 91.1.
[00:00:36] Welcome to the show. This is the A.P.E.X Hour My name is Lynn Vartan and we are back from fall break here on Southern Utah University's campus. So welcome back to those of you who are listening. Last week we were having a best of because we at our our live court are live Utah appeals court. And and it's a little tricky to have our judges on the air so we played the best stuff for you. But if you're interested in that event you can definitely check out our Web site to hear more. But today we are delving into Archaeology and Anthropology. So I have to guess I have Sergeant Eberhard here today and Dr. Penny Minturn. And so I want to start with Dr. Penny Minturn. Welcome. And tell me a little bit about yourself.
[00:01:36] Oh my goodness. Well I'm Dr. Penny Minturn. And I've been an archaeologist for over 35 years or so and I've worked a lot all over the Southwest United States so I've worked right here in Cedar City for about a year and a half in 2010 and 11. I was working and living here which is how I got here today sort of other connections.
[00:01:59] Welcome back.
[00:02:00] Thank You. So I've done archaeology all over the place all over the southwest and in Mexico. Two of the things that I enjoy the most are the excavation that I helped do in Egypt that was really awesome. And currently I work for the defense P.O.W. M.I.A. Accounting agency so that's who have been for the last seven years and that's a government agency that goes back to war zones and recovers missing and down soldiers.
[00:02:30] I can't wait to have a million questions to ask you about this and I've been asking you so many questions already today at lunch and everything so I can't wait to get more into it. But Sergeant Will you tell us a little bit about you and also your connection to the event today.
[00:02:46] Absolutely. Senior Master Sergeant Eric Eberhart these explosive ordnance disposal flight superintendent with the four 19th Fighter Wing based on a Hill Air Force Base Utah have been with them for about 14 years served eight years in the Marine Corps as well. My connection is that when Doc Penny goes out on the site to do the excavation because they were war zone there's military ordnance that may be involved whether it's booby traps or more bombs that were on the aircraft or or ejection seat components that are explosive. Those things may still be on site. So they have to have an explosive ordnance disposal technician on site to recognize those those items and render them safe accordingly.
[00:03:25] And you guys were together in Laos. And what year was that again.
[00:03:30] 2015.
[00:03:31] 2015. Not that long ago. And these are missions that you can volunteer to participate in. You sort of were put on- You can put yourself on a list as a volunteer for this?
[00:03:43] Yes through my major command I volunteered to be on the list. It was kind of a pipe dream I didn't think it would actually happen. There are units out there that are officially tasked to do this but the very last minute the individual that was tasked for broke his arm and I guess I was the first one on the list they called.
[00:03:59] That's amazing. And why this particular one. Where was there a particular interest in visiting this area or this particular mission that you wanted to volunteer for.
[00:04:09] I think the mission in and of itself is what people want to be on something bigger than yourself you're going out there to to find the remains of individuals that didn't make it back home. You know when we joined the military in that unfortunate circumstance that one of us should pass away in a war zone. I don't think any of us believe that it's a one way ticket. Right. You expect a return flight even if it's delayed and so those those individuals that are out there finding us. And in this case I had that opportunity to go out and bring a fellow service member home to his family.
[00:04:38] It must be for both of you just incredibly rewarding. I mean can you describe that feeling and what it's like for either of you.
[00:04:48] Well as I said I was an archaeologist for a very long time and then I had this opportunity to work with DPAA. And I thought of everything I had ever done which I always found very rewarding. This would be the cream on the top to be able to serve America and to be able to serve the men who gave their lives for us. Incredible. Just absolutely incredible. And I would also like to mention that as Eric was saying American soldiers have that belief because they are given a promise they are promised that we will not leave you behind. And no matter how long it takes to bring you home we'll still work to bring you home.
[00:05:32] That's such. So emotional. I mean it is such a powerful I mean you just must feel that that you are just this great vehicle to bring to bring these soldiers home after after sometimes decades.
[00:05:47] Yeah absolutely. We're we're working on World War II sites that you know are over 70 years old and that's pretty amazing but this is a promise that the United States government made and they take it very seriously.
[00:05:59] Now this was something that you almost had an inkling of as a child right. You were telling us the story of your bracelet you know you can see in the studio but you have this beautiful bracelet on that has quite a story behind it. Do you mind sharing that story.
[00:06:14] Right. Well I'm of the age where I actually grew up in the 70s. I was a smaller child in the 60s but I certainly remember Vietnam. My brother served in Vietnam. And so I was part of the whole hippie. You know what are we doing and all of that. So I was very aware of what was going on and when I was about 14 there were some magazines that came out for for teenagers basically and you could order a P.O.W. M.I.A. Bracelet and on that bracelet would be the name and rank and where the man was lost. And it was to remember the missing so that we would never forget them. And I had that bracelet for years I worked every day in high school I think. And it finally broke in half because it's just it's a it's a silver band. Yeah basically with the information on it. And after you know so many years of wearing it I knew it was about to break. So I kind of put it away. And then when I came to work for DPAAI thought I need to get a new one of those. So I actually have an identical bracelet to the one I had when I was 14 and it has the same guy on it the same information. And I wear it now as a person who is trying to help bring these people.
[00:07:34] And doing it and succeeding. I mean you have brought so many soldiers home and it was really that is a beautiful story. First of all I just love that the 14 year old version of you said I almost looked into the future in a way that's beautiful. And the other thing that was struck me is the work that you do. I've been witnessing today the reaction of people to both of you. I mean for your service currently and the work that you're doing it's just really beautiful to see people in the audience come up and and just be so touched by by what you're doing.
[00:08:14] Well I take that I take it as a meaning a great deal to me although I always have to say it's such an honor. Yeah I I appreciate that people appreciate what we're doing but for me it is a huge honor to be able to have this job.
[00:08:29] Well I want to talk specifically about your mission together a little bit more. before we get to that can you go into a little bit more detail about the organization the defense organization and exactly what I think and I didn't know anything about it until learning about you and I'd love to know a little more about it how it's structured and how it came to be. Because I read somewhere that it came to be and maybe a little bit of a powerful way from families that sort of how it happened.
[00:09:01] Yes I think most people would probably recognize P.O.W. M.I.A Flag. Right. And that was a flag. I may not be absolutely right about this but it was it was a flag designed by the families of the missing from Vietnam.
[00:09:14] OK.
[00:09:15] They were afraid that with all of the politics going on that their loved ones might be forgotten. So they formed the families form the P.O.W. M.I.A. Association And so that is actually one of our flags. We carry two flags. One is the flag for DPAA itself. And we almost always carry also carry the black and white flag of the P.O.W. M.I.A. missing. And so you know the P.O.W. M.I.A came around in the early 70s late 60s. Pardon me for not knowing exactly when. And again as I say I was there I was I was a child but I was very aware of the news and all the things that were going on. And then you know America really has you know they have made this promise for a very long time. But it was not always an active let's go out and see what we can find. Let's go do some research let's you know figure out you know we know it's been 50 years but there's got to be people who saw something there have to be something in the records that we can track down and that started very slowly and kind of in the 80s and the 90s and then it started ramping up I think as the 90s came to an end and America was very much aware of their position in the world. And then 9/11 happened. And so it's become more and more important to us as a country to know that we can do this. And because the DNA has developed so incredibly it in the last few years were able to do this much much more successfully than we could have done before.
[00:10:55] Are there multiple teams that work from this organization. How is it structured.
[00:11:01] Well we have we have three main offices there's an office in Washington D.C. that hosts a lot of our planners on a lot of our historians. We have a whole cadre of people who work for us both scientific and logistic. We are a good number of the people who work for us are military the military supports this highly. They send people into our logisticians to be our linguists be our medics and things like that. Most of the scientific staff is civilian so we work hand in hand with the military to do this job. And that's very important. We have somewhere between six and 700 people working for us right now. The other two laboratories are there's an actual forensic laboratory in Omaha and the main forensic laboratory is on Honolulu Hawaii. on Oahu sorry.
[00:11:57] And you've been there since. Is it 2011. Yes I started in 2011. Well that's wonderful. Well I think what I'll do is play my first song and then we come back I'd love to get into some of the details about the mission that you two were on together. The first song that I have for you today is a song called Canvas by Louis Azuel. And so let's have a listen. And this is KSUU Thunder 91.1 and you're listening to the A.P.E.X Hour
[00:15:06] OK welcome back to the A.P.E.X Hour This is Lynn Vartan and we are enjoying a conversation about the missions that my two guests took together. And in forensic anthropology and archaeology and we're specifically talking about their their mission in Laos but before we get to that we have a really cute conversation over the break talking about our sergeant visiting today is in. Describe to me the uniform that you're wearing.
[00:15:36] So yeah this is my service dress uniform it's kind of a blue suit jacket and ribbons and a name tag and more of a tie. Yeah it's it's a little bit more of a formal attire for us. We don't typically wear it on a daily basis.
[00:15:48] And you were saying only a few times a year for special occasions typically some of the banquets some of the retirement ceremonies and promotion ceremonies change commands things of that nature.
[00:15:58] What an honor for us today. You know and and I guess I wanted to ask so you've been sort of released for the day to be here to celebrate this this collaboration. How does how does that work.
[00:16:15] Because it directly relates to my job duties you know informing the public of how explosive ordnance you can really encounter explosive ordnance anywhere there's so many old ranges where the Army tested munitions or used them to to test their weapons and so it's possible you could come across something hiking through a canyon and find something so we put a lot of effort forward into educating the public on what explosives are and what to do if you find them and things of that nature. So it's kind of a community outreach and so it's it's right in line with my job duties.
[00:16:43] And it's great because I mean I'm learning so much about a specialty that I didn't know too much about. And then we were talking about on the on the mission. Well normally you sort of you wear more casual uniform during the day when you're on the base or when you're where you live and that kind of thing.
[00:17:02] Sure the airman battle dress uniform. It's just a camouflage. We're transitioning right now to multi pattern camouflage joint service wide. yeah that's my day to day uniform.
[00:17:14] But on the digs you are you are able to be in civilian dress and because you're digging and doing all these things. And and then you were saying how then if there is something that requires that. So tell us what you were telling me over the break.
[00:17:33] So when I go on missions the mission usually last six to eight weeks something like that and we can be anywhere in the world where there has been a war where airplanes have gone down or ground losses on a battlefield anything like that so we can be just about anywhere and we don't go as a military presence.
[00:17:52] Right.
[00:17:53] And so our military don't wear their uniforms they wear tennis shoes and not tennis shoes usually boots. Yeah and you know khakis and t shirts. Yeah because they're working really really hard and getting really really dirty. And so that's what I see. That's how I meet them. We fly over in the C17 together and that's what I see. I just see them as just everyday guys with really short haircuts. And we're working together for you know six eight weeks and so we get to know each other fairly well. And then at the end if there's if if we do find what we're looking for we usually will do a an honor transfer with an honor guard. And so that will require us to choose some of the guys that are with us who have brought their uniforms with them to like stand at attention for us when we when we take the transfer cases with the remains and put them on the plane or whatever we do an honor guard. And so when when the guys come out and they're in there really nice uniforms they just look so great. It's just such a it really brings home to me because I've been working with these guys you know and it's it's hot. And you know not you're not always at your best right. But you know they spiff up really well they just look really good and they're in their uniforms and they just are so respectful and just really a great thing to be part of.
[00:19:16] That's a great part of about the mission that. Nice nice little story that emerged there. Yeah. Love to talk a little bit more about your specific mission together and you know what. Well I guess my first question was what was it like on a day to day basis. What were each of you doing during the day .
[00:19:38] Doc Penny she was in charge of the site. She's the boss the archaeologist she's she's got everything mapped out has a plan and the rest of us are there just to work. You know we're we're digging through dirt sifting through it to find anything we can that that may be useful or lead us to more information. We get a little bit of training in Hawaii before we head over to these missions. So we kind of know what we're looking for and what the intent is. But there is a little bit of a culture shock when you first get there when you're realize I'm going to be working with a lot of natives of this country that don't speak English. I can't speak to them they can't speak back to me and we're going to be sifting through dirt together. My specialty is an explosive ordnance technician really only comes into play if we come across something that somebody suspects might be explosive. I do have some metal detecting tools and some use on a regular basis to kind of search areas to see if we think we've exhausted all avenues of digging in that area. But other than that I'm I'm in the hole digging with everybody else passing buckets along sifting through the dirt. It's it's tedious work but but knowing what you're doing it's very rewarding.
[00:20:42] Yeah. And you say yeah you guys are all the team as you said you're part of the team until your specialty is called into service. So you're there every day digging and digging and what came out in the talk today was you actually have an extra specialty that was particularly useful for this day.
[00:21:03] Yes.
[00:21:03] As I understand it.
[00:21:06] Anyone out there who does archaeology knows that you know you can learn everything you want to learn in the classroom. But one of the main things you really need to know is how to read soil and that's something that you know you can't really teach that overnight even in six weeks sometimes it's hard to teach somebody. So it's very nice for me to have somebody that I can trust to know the soil. And that's what Eric became to me because he's done a lot of work around his house and I guess his family those were farmers as well. And he does a lot of landscaping. And so when I said to Eric would you tell me could you tell me when the soil changes when the color changes or if the texture changes. He knew what I meant. And so I very quickly came to rely on him to be cause I I can't be everywhere at once but it's really nice to have one person that you can trust that will say Doc come over here because I think we found something and I knew I could trust him with that. So that was that was really great. That was you know I actually I don't have that a lot on these sites. People work really hard but somebody who has that sense of when soil is changing or when soil is a little different that's very valuable.
[00:22:20] Oh that's so cool.
[00:22:23] I thought she was going. I thought you were mentioning my balloon and artistry and talent. Oh yes there is that too. he Kept the kids entertained that the site because he he loves to make balloon animals. He's really great.
[00:22:31] Really?
[00:22:32] Yeah. So Doc Penny is really all about building bridges and you have to do that when you go into these countries. I mean there were were a guest in their country. And in some cases there are countries that we bombed quite a bit. And so there's a lot of resentment there and so we're in there to build bridges win over hearts and minds as well and I served as an LDS missionary when I was younger and one of the talents I took with me that opened up a lot of hearts and minds and doors was doing balloon animals. My mom had given me a kit when I was 14 years old and told me on the way to a family Easter party that I had to learn some balloons to do for all my little cousins. So I quickly learned a few things but over time I developed more things and I took this skill with me on my LDS mission. But I found it very useful because it did open up conversations even when you couldn't speak the same language. Right. And so just on a whim I thought I'm going to take my balloon animals and my pump with me on this. This Laotian mission. So I did. And within the first day on the site we found out that hey everybody in the world loves a balloon sword and you can get into a little battle with each other and it just melted hearts and everybody loved every day. When the job would end because we'd have to wait for a helicopter to take us home. And so while we were waiting for the helicopter ride I'd just start busting out balloons and little kids line up and the ladies would line up and even the men would line up to get their balloon.
[00:23:44] That is the cutest thing I've ever heard. Oh my gosh that's fantastic. So little swords little dogs.
[00:23:51] Hats and teddy bears and hearts and flowers and all that.
[00:23:55] You must have brought a kind of a boxful or a bag.
[00:23:59] Yeah one gross bag of balloons that 144 balloons and it lasted the whole time.
[00:24:04] That's fantastic.
[00:24:05] It's really really amazing you never know what kinds of tools you have that are just going to be irreplaceable. And that was that was one of them. They just loved him and therefore it really breaks down those walls between you and those people. Which you try to do constantly while you're there.
[00:24:23] Well I know that building bridges is such an important I mean that was the title of your talk today and the positivity that you bring is just so evident from talking to you and just you just start using it. Talk to me a little bit more about that part of it and maybe if you have an experience on this particular mission either of you or both of you that it really represented that. I mean the balloon animals that we can't beat that but are there any other ways that you find power in that building bridges particularly maybe in this mission.
[00:24:58] Well what I always try to do is smile a lot a smile does not need a translation. And you know respect. And you have to do that and you can't think oh these people are only digging soil for us they're not scientists or whatever. You know these people work hard. And you know when you just look at them and you realize they're just a human just like you. And for me the kids will either be really easy or they'll be very standoffish. It just depends. But the women will usually come to me they'll usually end up coming to me because I think they they they see a fellow mother because I'm very mothering type I've been told. So you know (unintelligible) You know I I can talk to the women and you don't have to speak their language. There's a lot of you know gestures and smiles and just other things that can build those bridges for you. You don't even have to speak the language just pretty amazing.
[00:26:00] Yeah. And do you have any other memories from this trip that you love to share. I mean trip mission that you love the share particularly any key relationships that came or moments that stick in your mind.
[00:26:15] I think there's a lot of bonding that goes on between team members when you get there none of you know each other before you leave. Very few of you anyway there's there's very few individuals on that mission that are that are native to the DPAA. So rest of us are building a team and you go through that whole forming storming norming and performing phase you know the first week everybody is gung ho and wants to just do the work and then when. Then the second week everybody starting to get on each other's nerves. Some problems occur and Doc Penny has sometimes has to step in and separate us and put us in our corners.
[00:26:45] Do you really have to step in?
[00:26:46] Once in a while.
[00:26:47] How do you. Because I want to ask you about leadership. How do you how do you do that. What do you do. Do you sort of see it kind of. And those four words. What did you say forming storming storming norming and performing Norming. Well we've got to forming and storming. And so when you step in what do you do.
[00:27:07] Well it's usually not like a blatant problem. But if you pay attention and as an anthropologist I should be aware of these kinds of things because I've been taught you know how people interact and how groups dynamics work and how they don't work.
[00:27:25] So I try to play pay really close attention and I can usually tell if people are not liking to be near each other or if you know they're the eye rolling all the teenagers out there anybody in the world can eye roll. And it's very meaningful. So what I usually try to do is kind of figure out what's going on and I don't try to blatantly get into the middle of it once in a while that's actually actually necessary but not very often and it's more of just again just the building bridges you try to kind of explain one side to win one person and then explain the other side to the other person and just you know just try on a case by case basis. You have to you know understand that they're humans that they are tired that they're far away from home that you know you don't have cell phones you don't have you know often you don't have any kind of communications at all. So it's really being out in the in the boonies and a lot of times you're camping sometimes you have a hotel but sometimes you're just camping and sometimes you just have to let people be who they are. So it can be tricky but I think because I'm an older archaeologist I probably have a little bit easier time of it because they don't want to you know mess with their mom or anything.
[00:28:40] All right so that's the storming and then then what the norming.
[00:28:44] Norming and the performing norming is kind of everybody starts to respect each other you figure out where your place is and the the normal flow of things right and then you get to the performing stage everybody just knows what they're supposed to do you show up on the site everyday things happen and it's like clockwork.
[00:28:59] That's a man that had been organizing.
[00:29:02] I'm going to totally use that with my music students. I mean I love that I hadn't heard it kind of put that way before.
[00:29:10] Its a military thing. But Yeah that's very true.
[00:29:11] I learned it in business school. So.
[00:29:14] There you go. And so was there a specific memory from one of those stages from that mission.
[00:29:22] Not in not in particular. I remember there was a few times when people get on each other's nerves a little bit but nothing significant. But going back to those building bridges that building bridge topic I think it's also important to to show respect for the country you're in by eating the food. Now there's a chance you could get sick sometimes the chance to put something very exotic in front of you. And I've learned over time that if you just try it sometimes you like it and it means a lot to them because in some cases they're offering you everything they have.
[00:29:50] Yeah.
[00:29:50] And so they have made a big difference to open up some bridges.
[00:29:54] I would say I said this in my talk this morning about respect if you give respect you will get respect and.
[00:30:01] I love that.
[00:30:02] I cannot emphasize that I'm much you can't walk into these people and wait for them to give you respect because that's not how it works. It doesn't work that way anywhere.
[00:30:10] Right.
[00:30:10] But if you show respect to someone then they're going to you know they're going to give it right back to you right there.
[00:30:16] And what were the results of that mission. You were able to identify someone and bring them back.
[00:30:23] Actually in that particular mission we worked on three separate sites and we closed two of the sites we had already been at these sites for a very long time in Southeast Asia. The soil is very acidic and so we often don't find a lot in the sites. So we did our best. We dug it to its absolute archaeological scientific extent and we've closed it. We didn't get to bring anybody home on that one. And in Southeast Asia most specifically that's often true because it's a very tough place to work. But sometimes you know you just keep going back and you find enough that you can identify someone. So that's why we keep going back.
[00:31:05] And I imagine there's a great satisfaction in taking a site all the way through to because you feel like you've given that site that much attention.
[00:31:14] Right. Right we've really tried we really really try and just because we've closed the site doesn't mean that it will stay closed forever if we get new information from any source. We can always go back and try again.
[00:31:27] And from my understanding correct me if I'm wrong but on that particular mission our primary assignment that we went to we closed that site but one of the intent was to discover whether or not the co-pilot had gone down with that plane. They had discovered evidence in the past that a single individual for sure was on that site but that particular aircraft had the capability of ejecting just a copilot if they chose. And so they hadn't found enough life support equipment to determine prior to this. If two people had gone down on that site or not been on our mission we did determine that there were two sets of life support equipment and we were able to bring closure to that family to let them know yes this is I think copilot was when the plane went down.
[00:32:04] And that's I think one of the things you were saying today that it's it's it's not just about the remains but sometimes it's about the equipment and the materials that can be just as definitive in that process.
[00:32:19] And that's why you know you have archaeologists at the site. This is my opinion you have archaeologists on the site running these sites because they're trained to see everything not just looking for the human remains on the sites. Yeah there's other kinds of evidence that can tell you context.
[00:32:37] Right.
[00:32:38] And in this case we have a lot of strange things that said oh we have people who said that they saw him being taken prisoner. But we were able to prove that there were two ejection seats at the site.
[00:32:52] OK.
[00:32:52] Which means even though we didn't find the remains of the second guy we could tell his family that you know we found the the the vestiges of the seat he was in. And so you get different kinds of answers sometimes you don't always get that really great I can get DNA answer.
[00:33:11] Right.
[00:33:12] But you do always get answers sometimes not the answer you want.
[00:33:16] Amazing. Well I think I'll take a little break again. The next song that I have for you today is called try and the artist is Bugge and then Wessell Whetsel Toft. So have a listen to that. Again you're listening to the A.P.E.X Hour KSUU Thunder 91.1.
[00:37:31] OK. And welcome back everyone. You're listening to the A.P.E.X Hour KSUU thunder 91.1 My Name is Lynn Vartan and we we're just having a great conversation here about the organization is called I'm trying to look up the actual word but a what does DPAA stand for one more time.
[00:37:52] Defense P.O.W. M.I.A Accounting agency.
[00:37:57] Okay great. And we have Sergeant Eberhardt. Here is how I said that and Dr Penny Minturn and we were talking about their their mission in Laos. And I'd like to turn to another and another mission. And that is your your travels in Egypt and some of the things that you were doing there. I know you talked about them a little bit in your talk today but could you give us a little bit of an outline on sort of that mission. Although I don't know if it was called the Misson.
[00:38:31] It's not called the mission that the DPAA stuff called missions and so now everything in my head is a mission.
[00:38:36] Right. So that's a dig.
[00:38:38] Yeah it was an excavation. And I went twice. I went in 1999 as part of a bio archaeological field school from Arizona State University and we were there for three months at that time. And then I went back in 2007 after I had completed my doctorate at Arizona State. The woman who is in charge of the middle cemetery (unintelligible). Her name is Dr. Janet Richards from Ann Arbor University of Michigan. And she invited me to come back and when I went she allowed me to as a gift for my graduation. She allowed me to be in charge of the excavation of the Tomb of EU. And so that's what we spent that those couple of months doing and it was really amazing.
[00:39:26] That's an amazing gift.
[00:39:28] Oh it was. It was a huge gift.
[00:39:31] You must have been nervous.
[00:39:33] Well you know I'm pretty sure of myself as an archaeologist I have to say so. I was just excited excited that I knew I could do a good job for her. And you know you just take it one day at a time that's archaeology is like that you can't go in with a preplan you know we go on these missions and Eric said you know I have a plan. I do have a plan but that plan can change at any time. And that's kind of the whole essence of not only archaeology but life I would say is if it's not working exactly. You just change it. It's not a huge mistake it's not a bad thing. You just have to that out and go on. So I think I'm pretty good at adapting.
[00:40:12] I love that. Can you tell me a little bit about what your sort of day in the life on in your field work is like. We were talking about the length of the day and then what you do after in the evening can you sort of take our listeners through kind of a day in the life on an excavation is for you.
[00:40:31] OK. Or you do specifically mean like working in archaeology or the work that I have done for DPAA because they're very different.
[00:40:38] Ah well I'd love to hear both if we have time.
[00:40:43] Well the mission I'm sorry the excavation in Egypt was was very specific but not unusual because it was very hot most of the time we were there we started very early. We were usually on the site by about five thirty in the morning.
[00:40:57] Wow.
[00:40:57] And then by noonish maybe 130 one I'm sorry 12:00 noon. To 1 I'll get it here in a minute between 12 and 1. We would take a break because by that time it was so hot. But we've already worked since 530 so we've put it in a pretty good day. And we go back to the American house which is where we were staying and they would fix lunch for us and we'd have lunch and then we would have like a siesta. We would have two or three hours to rest or to sit around and chat with each other or do anything just to wind down. And then in the afternoon the later afternoon we would go back to work and do our laboratory work and our paperwork and that would last until it was time for tea and then after tea we will probably start playing euchre or something when it's it's a similar long day for DPAA when you're in the field you get up as soon as the helicopters can fly basically or you get up early enough to catch the first rays of light if you're hiking to the site and then you put in eight hours at least you know eight to nine hours then sometimes you have to catch the Hielo to go back to your hotel or you have to hike back to your hooch. And then after that you know there's a dinner at some point. Usually we usually make our own dinners on the DPAA missions but then after that the archaeologists and sometimes the medic or if somebody has something to do for their specialty if we had some EOD that Eric had to look at he might write a report on that and what I do then is I have to go through all the stuff we've removed from the site that day and separate it out and mark it where it came from and do all my paperwork so that usually last till about bedtime and then to get up and do it again the next day.
[00:42:46] But it sounds like you love being in the field you.
[00:42:48] I Do love it. I really love it.
[00:42:50] That's kind of one of the main themes you were talking about was the following your bliss. you Said at times this morning it's such a beautiful sentiment so important and one of the things before we turn to the other topic that I wanted to get to was about I wanted to touch on that the other service that happens during these missions. You mentioned the medic. Not just for the team but also sometimes having a doctor service the community could either of you. Tell us a little bit about some of those other services that are provided on some of these missions.
[00:43:24] I was going to divert to Penney and she's more familiar with them having worked with the organization. But yeah I do know from being there that we had a medic and there was a few days during our mission where he was asked to go help out the local community to provide some diagnosed. Well I don't know how much you can diagnose but provide whatever aid he can to the local villagers that where we are housed during that timeframe not sure if there's any educational aspects to the mission.
[00:43:50] Sometimes there are.
[00:43:52] It Really depends on where where you're at.
[00:43:53] Right and the crew that you're with. I told the story this morning about a crew that went with me in 2014 to Laos and they had the idea that since they knew there was a school at the top of the hill where we were excavating they decided maybe we should take some playground equipment. So they took the stuff to build a playground and so they built the playground just up the hill from where we were and that was really appreciated by the locals and especially the kids. You know it's really you know and I think we went back to that site a few times and always made sure that we had stuff to fix it with if it had broken down or whatever. Sometimes the crew will gather together used clothing. We've done that several times in Guadalcanal and the crew will that the team will get a big tough box and fill it with clothes of different sizes and different uses and we'll take that to the site and maybe we'll you have to be very politically aware so you don't just give it to everyone in the community you give it to the lead person in the community. The elder who has the wherewithal to know who really needs it and that kind of thing so you give it to the elder and he passes it out so people really appreciate that kind of thing. We have so much as Americans.
[00:45:13] Yeah yeah well that's a beautiful part of that that loves hearing about. I mean you're going into these places and spending all this time but also you know building bridges. I mean in many ways as possible so.
[00:45:26] Right.
[00:45:27] One of the other things I wanted to talk about in the time that we had left is just about how you each find your success.
[00:45:39] I mean you're both doing just such amazing things and one of the things we talk about a lot in education with our students is and you touched on it a little bit in your talk today. You know they're working so hard in school and they're taking their classes and all these things but then how do you become successful then in life and kind of keep that drive going. Do you have any thoughts or advice or things that have really worked for you that you'd like to pass along.
[00:46:08] Yeah you know it's the old movie with Robin Williams. Carpe Diem Seize the day. I think is always a good one don't shy away from those opportunities those volunteer opportunities that happen on a regular basis. All too often we think well that looks kind of tough and I'm sure somebody else volunteers I may shy away from this but don't jump in on an even if it's dirty task you know digging through dirt for two months on end you know I don't know how many metric tons of dirt we moved.
[00:46:32] A lot.
[00:46:33] You know there wasn't an article of clothing that I could bring on with me because it was so dirty and ruined by the time I came home. But it was it was so rewarding and I learned so much about myself and about so many other people in that and in that environment and my career is kind of been that way. I like to jump in and volunteer where other people don't because there's opportunities hidden gems within those opportunities.
[00:46:53] I love that. Do you ever struggle with motivation or is you just always been kind of a go get getter type.
[00:47:01] I like to think that I've got a growth mindset now and I think the difference between growth and fixed mindset is just a little bit of confidence in yourself it may not be something you've done before but take a try and don't be afraid to fail you're gonna fail. That's how you learn about yourself and where your capabilities are and what you know your capabilities where your limits are. It's much more easier to accept the next challenge knowing what you can and can't do.
[00:47:25] I totally agree if if there are students out there or young people out there who I be wanting to cultivate that growth mindset. Are there. Do you have any advice for them on how to I mean just other than trying and not being afraid of failure because that is ok.
[00:47:41] Don't say yes to everything because drugs are bad. But yes take those opportunities. Ya know. If your first inclination when somebody asks for help on something is to say no that's something you should be saying yes to.
[00:47:56] I love that. OK great. Thank you. Dr. Minturn. How about you. What advice do you have. What things. What magic details do you have to share.
[00:48:08] I think my biggest magic detail is that a failure is just an opportunity waiting to happen.
[00:48:14] Yeah.
[00:48:15] I told some stories this morning about my own failures in the past and when you fail it doesn't matter what it is if you if you fail painting your fingernails the wrong color or if you fail the chemistry class. You know it I've always hated this saying but it is what it is and what it is is an opportunity. And don't ever put yourself down because you are so doing the best you can and just keep doing it and just keep going forward. I flunked out of school once and I went back a semester later and here I am 30 years later. It's about not allowing other people to guide your bliss. The the quote that you said Follow your bliss that comes from Joseph CAMPBELL That's not me. And one of my favorite people ever. Joseph CAMPBELL Look him up. He's really really just a very strong personality who will tell you just be who you are and go forward. Don't feel like you're a failure because failure is just opportunity knocking.
[00:49:23] Yeah I love that. And do you ever struggle with motivation and how do you get through it. I mean that just seems to be something that comes up a lot in at least in the campus environment. I mean the students that I'm working with you know they say they want success but then it's sometimes it's hard to string together day after day after day. I mean I know I experience it too. What do you do.
[00:49:47] Well Eric said something earlier about using anything for an opportunity for growth and that's it's about a mindset and mindset is not always easy to pull up. Some days are just so gray that it's really difficult. But just try to remember that the future is always there. And if you if you will take those opportunities to just say dang it I'm gonna do it. That's what's gotten me through I'm from Missouri I'm a Missouri mule. That's how I got through my doctorate was I just told my doc my professor you know I'm not quitting and I'm not quitting. And sometimes all you need is somebody to challenge you and say well you probably should quit then somebody tells you that when you reach down and you get that little person inside that says yeah just be persnickety.
[00:50:36] I love that you guys have such great advice. It's really beautiful. And then at the questions in the time that we have left. One is that I'd love to know if there's anything right now in your specific area that's really exciting or. And I know what you do you find great joy. But in terms of things that are maybe on the cutting edge is there a new discovery or new direction that things are going that are that are really of interest to you right now.
[00:51:12] There's a couple of things from from where I work. There's the the DNA lab that we work with is called Aftel and they work in Dover Delaware and they're awesome. They just are on the cutting edge of figuring out how to remove DNA to replicate the DNA. They're doing it with smaller and smaller pieces and they're just getting more and more information and that's really exciting for what I do. In other news the museum in Brazil was destroyed in an earthquake or a fire. I'm sorry. I'm sorry it was a huge fire. They had millions and millions of artifacts and things. And one of the things they had was a very old skeleton from Brazil who they named Lucía after Lucy and they thought that they had lost everything and just last week they found parts of the Lucía. So I don't know that just popped in my head when you said that because I think that's so exciting that they found parts of Lucía. So that's just really really awesome.
[00:52:17] Oh my gosh that's very exciting. Yeah. And then the DNA thing that you're speaking of. One of the things I think was so fascinating that I learned at lunch today that I didn't know. I mean because you know most of us watch TV like you were saying or saying oh CSI gets DNA back and you know like that afternoon right. But the rate of DNA testing returns was so much longer than I thought. And that's actually an improvement that's really gotten better. Can't talk about that.
[00:52:49] Well it's getting better all the time I mean geneticists are working on this process all the time. And the time period that it takes from the time they get a sample to when they can replicate the DNA and actually read the DNA for us is getting shorter and shorter. But it can take you know six weeks to six months but they're not going to do it this afternoon.
[00:53:09] Right. Right.
[00:53:10] Right.
[00:53:11] Exactly. And it's just. But six weeks six months is such a long time. My goodness.
[00:53:19] Watching CSI and Bones it's not what they're doing. We don't have those really wonderful holograms that can replicate people in 3D.
[00:53:28] How do you feel about those shows are they are they sort of fun. I mean do you kind of look at them askance or is it just like oh don't show me those shows I don't want to have anything to do with them.
[00:53:39] They're Kind of fun because people then have some idea what we do but I'm not allowed to watch those with my children because I'm constantly criticizing and they say Mom.
[00:53:50] Are they 90 Percent wrong 80 percent wrong.
[00:53:53] They're a good 70 percent wrong. Probably more.
[00:53:57] But when you think about shows like Star Trek back in the day some of those ideas were out of this world and some of that's coming to fruition. I mean how great would it be if some of those ideas on those shows people start thinking about hey why can't we do this too.
[00:54:12] It's getting better all the time.
[00:54:15] Is there anything in your area of expertise that's really exciting right now.
[00:54:19] I would love to say that the world is becoming a better place and that I'll be out of a job soon because really I wish there was such a place where we didn't have to worry about explosives blowing people up and things of that nature. But I don't like that a bit of a pessimist in that aspect. I think the world is getting worse and we're going to have to deal with it more and more. So that's unfortunate to say that I don't mean to bring it down or in at the very bottom.
[00:54:43] I've got to got something to bring us up.
[00:54:45] I am happy though that we have service members that are willing to enlist even to this day to go out and do something be part of something bigger than themselves for worthy ideals that are bigger than them. Freedom liberty justice equality.
[00:55:01] Well thank you for that powerful response and we will light it up for my last question which is always sort of it's a question I ask and on the radio show all the time and it's what's turning you on right now. Now this does not have to do with work or anything like that. It could be a book that you're reading or a TV show that you love or a movie or a podcast. It's kind of just a fun way for people to see. One other thing about you that's maybe outside of your normal work things so I ask you what is turning you on this week.
[00:55:46] for me I just finished reading recently the book Start with Why. By Simon Sinek.
[00:55:50] Start with Why.
[00:55:52] And it really puts things in perspective for you or from an organizational perspective of why are you doing things as opposed to what and how when you when you focus on the why the what and the how don't matter as much.
[00:56:04] OK.
[00:56:05] And things improve. That's not a plug for the book it just happens.
[00:56:09] And who was the author.
[00:56:10] Simon Sinek .
[00:56:14] Start with why I'm gonna check that out. That sounds really good. And how about you Dr. Minturn.
[00:56:19] Well I would say also a book I've been reading a couple books by Brene Brown. And I think I could have read them a year ago and they wouldn't have spoken to me quite so much. But more recently I've been struggling with some things. Everybody struggles and just some of the things that she talks about in being a woman and fighting against your darker nature sometimes of the knee jerk reaction of I'm not really good enough. And she really battles that with some really simple and straightforward. You know what I was trying to say earlier is you know you are not nothing. All right. You are worth everything because you simply simply because you exist. And she really addresses that and how to be a leader and in those kinds of things so Brene Brown says.
[00:57:14] She's been suggested to me several times and so I'm going to have to dig into those books. All right well we're out of time here on our show in the A.P.E.X Hour Thank you so much to both of you for joining me today. What a pleasure to have you in the studio. All right well we're going to sign off here for the A.P.E.X Hour and we'll look forward to seeing you again again feel free to check us out on the Web. And this is KSUU Thunder 91.1
[00:57:42] Thanks so much for listening to the A.P.E.X Hour here on KSUU Thunder 91.1 Come find us again next Thursday at 3:00p.m. for more conversations with the visiting guests at Southern Utah University. And new music to discover for your next playlist. And in the meantime we would love to see you our pants on camera. Find out more check out suu.edu/apex Until next week. This Lynn Vartan thing goodbye from theA.P.E.X Hour Here on Thunder 91.1