[00:00:00] Hey, everyone, this is Lynn Vartan and you are listening to the A.P.E.X Hour on KSUU Thunder 91.1 in this show, you get more personal time with the guests who visit Southern Utah University from all over. Learning more about their stories and opinions beyond their presentation on stage. We will also give you some new music to listen to and hope to turn you on to some new sound and new genres. You can find us here every Thursday at 3:00 p.m. for it on the web at suu.edu/apex. But for now, welcome to this week's show. Here on Thunder 91.1.
Lynn Vartan [00:00:48] Okay. Well, welcome in, everybody. It is the middle of November here on southern Utah University's campus. I am Lynn Vartan. You're listening to the A.P.E.X Hour and we are getting ready to celebrate Thanksgiving next week. But it is our last week of A.P.E.X Hour events for the fall semester. I have two guests joining me in the studio today, and I'm going to introduce them and we're going to start talking about their careers. And we're going to get into talking about politics and life and law and politics and all things to that nature. So the first of my two guests is one of our own SUU faculty members, and that is Doug Bennett. Welcome to the studio, Doug. Thank you. And good to be here. Now, I hear a radio voice in there, and I know I'm not going to ask you too much about it, but truth be told, this is not the first time you've been on the radio, you had a show of your own.
Doug Bennett [00:01:49] I did. I had a couple, long ago. I did have an hour's show once in a while in Salt Lake City. Oh, my gosh. And then in my errant youth in Honolulu, in what we called at the time, alternative community radio.
[00:02:06] I love it. Wow. Well, thank you for making your radio comeback with me today. Thank you. Thank you. Tell our audience and our listeners what you do and what you teach at SUU.
[00:02:19] I'm a Professor of Political Science. I teach introduction to American government and politics, American legislative procedure and history, American political thought. And I do about every other year a seminar and advocacy. Lobbyists, how they do it, why they do it, and why you should think of becoming one.
[00:02:43] And that's because your background is in lobbying, right? Yes. And can you tell her? I mean, it's just just a snapshot of a bit of your history.
[00:02:54] Yes. I graduated from the University of Utah College of Law and got a job in Washington with the House of Representatives. I met our guest, Steve Blumenthal, when we were both lawyers for the House Energy and Commerce Committee. My portfolio was largely product liability. And after I was the lead Republican counsel on NAFTA and when after afterwards passed, I joined a lobbying firm in Washington. It was the only Republican. It was an old Democrat firm called Public Strategies. And I have to admit, I loved it. I loved being in the firm. I met interesting people whom we represented. Well, one client was Southwest Airlines. So I got to know Herb Kelleher, the founder of Southwest Alcor, became a good friend and a fascinating man. And I found that I enjoyed the intersection of politics and policy much more than the practice of the law. I see. So I left my first lobbying firm and joined a firm called Timmons, a company which was one of the best life lobbying firms in Washington. And we had variance in clients. I represented the Major League Baseball for many years. Right. Boeing, Bristol-Myers Squibb, Northrop Grumman and New York Life Insurance. All that is to say, you worked on. We worked on a broad range of issues. I was at Timmins for six years when I got a call from the Liberty Mutual Company, which the last of the big property and casualty companies to open a Washington office. So they asked me if I would open their D.C. office. They're headquartered in Boston. I directed their federal affairs for two years and then they promoted me to Vise, president for international government relations, which point I started spending more time abroad. Liberty was in 26 countries at the time. Wow. And that's where I started going to countries like Vietnam and Venezuela and places that you probably wouldn't go on vacation were fascinating for me to see and work with those socialist or communist governments basically to try to sell car insurance. Wow. So it was pretty interesting.
[00:05:06] That's great. I've known bits and pieces of that, but I really appreciate getting that snapshot kind of the totality of it. And now we are so lucky to have you here as a faculty member at SUU.
[00:05:15] And I'm very, very fortunate to be here. And it's because of you that we have gotten to know our guest, Steve Blumenthal. You two met and have been friends for a little while. And I would love to now turn to Steven, say welcome to KSUU Thunder 91.1.
[00:05:33] Thank you very much. I am delighted to be here. This is my first visit to Southern Utah University and I'm impressed beyond my ability to put it in words. I want to congratulate all of you on a very wise choice of dedication and institutions. Give you a bit of my background. I like to refer to myself by a term that some people would probably think is not very complimentary. I am a Washington pro, I'm an attorney and all I ever wanted to do was go to Washington, D.C. and be involved in the government to as high a position as I could find and then to experience the Washington life. I'm a graduate of Rutgers Law School. Rutgers is the State University of New Jersey. But I came to Washington almost immediately. In that I had I done it did deliberately. I published an article in in law school on the legal ramifications of the development of computerization, the securities industry. And I concluded that the Nasdaq's system was just the greatest thing since sliced bread. Well, lo and behold, the general counsel of the Nasdaq system called my securities law professor. So where is this guy? And I went down to Washington and had an interview and he offered me a job. And I guess about fell off the chair saying and I said I never expected a first interview offer. And he said to me, well, it looks like you've been preparing for this position your whole life. So I was with the National Association of Securities Deal, is the owner of the Nasdaq sale system at that time. Today it's called FINRA. And don't ask me what the acronym stands for, I forget. But the point is, is that I was off representing the securities industry in one way or another in Washington. I eventually wound up a vise president of the Securities Industry Association, which was the main lobbying group. The the what is referred to as a trade association for Wall Street. Its members are all these broker dealer firms. You could name Merrill Lynch and Goldman Sachs and what have you. And I did that for nine years now. This is an indication of how backwards my entire life has been. Most people go to work on the Hill, on Capitol Hill, working either in a congressional office or a committee or a Senate office, and then they become lobbyists and a trade association. I spent nine years in a trade association and then went to work on the Hill. I think I was a counsel with Professor Bennett to the Energy and Commerce Committee, which is the committee that has the broadest jurisdiction of any in the House of Representatives and the chairman of that committee. This was at a time when the Democrats controlled the House of Representatives, was a man named John Dingell, who eventually became, I believe, the longest serving congressman in in Congress. And he was a powerhouse. So I got exactly what I was looking for. I felt like I was in the center of the cyclone watching it all fly around, man. I loved it. To those of you who are considering what any kind of a position in Washington, D.C., you should consider it. You don't have to be a lawyer. You can be an economist. You can be a social worker. There's there's a whole all sorts of work available in the government. And it's great, great fun. It's a good way to make a living. After the after Capitol Hill, I actually went out into the private sector. I was a vise president of Charles Schwab and Company. And and that was fun. But one day a phone call came and they said, how would you like to be in this federal agency, the Office of Federal Housing Enterprise Oversight, referred to as a fail which regulates Fannie and Freddie. What would you like to be? Do you want to be the deputy director? I said no, but I'll be counsel to the chair. And I said, fine. And I went, there are fine. About six months I was deputy director. You know, you have to go where the positions are available. Right. And we were involved in the regulation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which involved a good deal of conflict and dealing with with Capitol Hill and dealing with these major corporate entities. And, of course, you know, what happened there or in 2007, 2008, there was a financial crisis which rivaled 1929. And I stayed there, you know. Oh, I don't know, a year or so after that. And then the I was a I was the deputy director of the agency. And when they were director resigned, I became the acting director, which meant that in about a year after that, the president nominated a permanent director. He was confirmed by the Senate. And I was free to leave the government at that point. After a brief respite, I became a partner in the law firm of Williams and Jensen, which was one of Washington's, I think, more productive lobbying law firms. They represented, for example. Boldly, not only major financial institutions like the Credit Suisse Bank, but they were also counsel to the board of directors of the National Rifle Association. Now, when you think of lobbying and you think of the NRA, you realize you're playing in the in the big leagues, no matter how you feel about gun control. I retired about two years ago and I now live in Sedona, Arizona, surrounded by the most beautiful red rocks I've ever seen. But there is no shortage of beautiful red rocks here in Cedar City either. And I'm trying to lose the last vestiges of my New Jersey heritage and become an honest to God Westerner. I do not own cowboy boots. I had no hat, no turquoise, no belt buckles. But I'm I'm open minded. I'm prepared to make the sacrifice and try. There's still time. There's still time.
[00:11:46] Well, thank you so much for that snapshot of your history. Our students have just been soaking it up all day long in their talks with you and in your talk today. And I we're gonna take a musical break right now, but I think we're gonna go along the lines of advice and you have some words of wisdom to pass along. So we've got some rules of engagement that we're going to come back to here. But first, this song to listen to. I always try to pick a few interesting pieces. This is a Avishai Cohen, who is a bass player in a jazz player who just has some really interesting sounds. And the song that we're gonna listen to is called Ellie. So see what you think this is KSUU Thunder 91.1.
[00:16:15] All right. Well, welcome back. That song was Ellie. The artist is a Avishai Cohen. Just a really great bass Jazz player. Check it out. So this is Lynn Vartan. We're back on the A.P.E.X Hour KSUU Thunder 91.1. I'm joined in the studio with Steve Blumenthal and Doug Bennett. And Steve has been giving our students all kinds of interesting advice. But you have some rules that we should all abide by.
[00:16:53] Is that right? Well, not all of you, those who want to have serious careers in Washington political circles, OK, basically refer these the rules of the game. And I develop them when I was a partner at the law firm of Williams and Johnson. It's a law firm, principally a lobbying firm. And I would give this lecture to the young lobbyists. Basically, it's it's a statement that you never really need to come to grips with the ethics of representing whoever will pay your fee and to not become judgmental, but to do it perhaps with a bit of humor.
[00:17:29] OK, I'm ready. For example, the first rule was, look, since this sincerity is everything, once you can fake that, you've got it made. I'm already laughing. The the reporter, Maureen Murphy, once said that the reason there are so few female politicians is because it's so difficult to put makeup on two faces. The second rule of the game.
[00:17:52] Well, I just have to digest that for a moment. I barely can put makeup on one as it is. Exactly right. That's fantastic. OK.
[00:18:01] The second rule was, look, everyone lies, but it doesn't matter because nobody listens. You were taught in the correction in your school that honesty is the best policy, while in Washington at best, it's inconvenient. We do not deal in truth here. We deal in half truths. In Washington, truth is determined by the majority vote. The majority is always right because they control the budget. We do not seek justice or truth or a fair, equitable settlement. There is no second place winners. The winners take all. Now then. The third is that expectations of fair treatment are for children. The horrible late Senator Joe McCarthy once asked, why fight fair when you're shooting rats? If you're not an advocate for your position, who will be? It's up to the other guy to tell his story. And a lot of politics is about trying to keep him from having the opportunity. Now, the fourth rule of the game is that sometimes the winners find it in their interest to toss a crumb to the losers, to keep them around, rather than to have them replaced by somebody who might do a better job. A weak opponent is a gift that keeps on giving. The Republicans are still running against Jimmy Carter only. He's an African-American now. The bottom line is, if somebody promises you a fair deal, cut the cards first. 5 is that deal cutting was an art form in the past. We used to say that a politician had not been born who didn't prefer consensus to confrontation and you could get fed on half loaves. But then Dick Cheney under President George W. Bush and Barack Obama got elected. And today, the only cutting that gets done in politics is up throat's. Six was Tip O'Neill, the former speaker of the House. One said that money is the mother's milk of politics. No one can afford to buy the Congress. There are too many of them in the last to sell be too expensive. What money buys you is it gets you access to make your case. The Washington rule on money is simple. If you give, you get. If you don't give, don't ask. Nothing is free. Free just means they'll seek compensation later. If you're invited to a breakfast with member of Congress and you're told it's not a fundraiser, but it's carries the meet and greet. Leave your business cards home because they will be calling in the future when it is time for fundraising. Write in seven. Washington is full of people who are not political and they're contemptuous of the people involved in it. People who say they're above politics are saying democracy is beneath them. People who believe they're too smart to get into politics, Plato told us, are punished by being governed by dumber people. The Greeks said the justice was doing good to your friends and harm to your enemies. Does that sound like Washington to you? Well, the only people more secretive and mendacious than lobbyists are spies. They both internalize the same set of principles, deny everything, admit nothing. Make counter allegations. Never accept responsibility for anything that goes wrong. There are Catholic lobbyists in Washington who confess to their priest by saying, bless me, father, for sins have been committed. The only the other characteristic spies and lobbyists have in common is a desire for anonymity. In the lobbying profession, publicity is followed by a jail sentence. Now, number nine is understand that members of Congress and senators vote for legislation they have never written and was written by staff of having prepared legislation. Might myself. I cannot tell you what an experience is when a congressman walks, walks into the hearing room and says to tell me what this is all about. Now, no matter what the problem is, Congress or congressional action will probably not cure it, only make it worse. A zebra is a horse designed by congressional committee. Ronald Reagan wondered what the Ten Commandments would look like if they'd been passed by Congress. Obviously, there was a congressional compromise on that one. They limited them to 10, but adultery stayed in. A Congress that is doing nothing is not dysfunctional. Barry Goldwater said that he did not come to Washington to pass good laws. He came to stop the passage of bad ones. Finally, I have a comic strip on the wall of my office that a lady gave me when I started my career as a lobbyist. A man is climbing a mountain to reach a guru. When he gets to the rock legs on which the guru sits, he says, What is the secret to happiness? The guru responds. Poverty, abstinence and self-sacrifice to which the climber responds. Is there anyone else up there I can talk to? Obviously he was a lobbyist and guy. Those are the rules of the game now. I hope you enjoy.
[00:22:56] Thank you so much for that. I mean, you should take that act on the road. That's a good one. Several of them made me laugh. And I really think that comic strip is great. So, Doug, as as a fellow lobbyist in the room, how do you respond to the rules of engagement?
[00:23:16] I think Mr. Blumenthal's put the best possible face on it. Maybe shaded it a little bit. Lobbyists have a certain reputation. I learned as a lobbyist that no one likes lobbyists and no one knows what lobbyists do.
[00:23:31] Yeah. How do you guys do? How do you do that? How do you sustain a life in that in that kind of job?
[00:23:40] Well, I did it by marrying a lobbyist. We assure each other that we're good people. That's a good tact. There is. There is unfortunately an impression in the public that it's one giant exchange of money for favors. Right. And that's absurd. It doesn't work that way. The average Congressional House campaign now costs over a million dollars, right? Lobbyists like everyone else, are restricted in the money they can contribute. Just like corporations are. Oh, formal contributions. And if anyone thinks that a politician is going to flip his or her position in exchange for a 46 hundred dollar political contribution, they're out of their minds, right? Right.
[00:24:31] Does money play a role?
[00:24:32] Yes. As Steve said, money buys access. Money also buys access to Harvard. Money buys access to Stanford. That's true. Money buys access to the Olympics and the final four. Should it determine our politics? No, it should not. Does it? No, it does not. The most successful candidates are many of the most successful candidates in our recent political history have not been candidates with access to vast money. Perhaps the best example being Barack Obama, who is a junior senator from Illinois. No one had heard of until he developed the technique of raising money online, not in hundred dollar contributions from the General Motors PAC, but five dollar contributions from grandma and grandpa. Right. The aggregation of those modest contributions gave him enough money to win. And he was the first candidate in modern presidential campaign history to forego public financing and the limits on it in exchange for the chance to raise great amounts of money. And it was extremely successful for him. He had organizational skill. He had personal charisma, an attractive message. But he wouldn't have been president had he not been able to raise the money. So it's an important part of the equation that people often caricature.
[00:25:47] Right. And when students ask you, because I'm sure they do it, what exactly then does a lobbyist do? What's what's the best answer?
[00:25:57] The first thing that we do is convey information. OK. As Steve suggested in his remarks today, if I'm a housing regulator, it behooves me to know something about the housing industry. Where do you go to find people who know about the housing industry? You go to the housing industry. So the phenomenon that's derided as a revolving door is not as sinister as people think, because what you're doing is bringing private sector expertise to the public sector and public sector regulatory experience back to the private sector. It's to me healthy to have an exchange of private and public as opposed to a professional public class of politicians and a private sector that is isolated from the regulators. Right. A lobbyist conveys information. The second thing a lobbyist can do is represent his client to members of Congress in such a way that they realize that he or she provides an opportunity. We're opening a new plant in Cedar. I'm the Doug Bennett Corporation. I'm opening a new plant in Cedar City, Utah. It will create 300 jobs. Why don't I invite Congressman Chris Stewart to cut the ribbon? He's then on the front page of Iron County today and more likely to pick up the phone when I call next time to say, hey, we have a problem. In other words, you you share information, you open up lines of communication, license ships.
[00:27:29] The other thing is you have to be able to take no for an answer because someone you've contributed to, worked for, volunteered for can vote against you and it's going to hurt and you've got to go back to him tomorrow. Right. Right. So you have to realize that members of Congress will do what's in their interest, not in the interest of your client. And today they can't help you. Tomorrow, maybe they can. You've got to stay friends both today and tomorrow.
[00:28:04] Oh, OK. Well, thank you for that. That's a really cool insight, Barry. Thank you. Yeah. All right. It's time for another song. I have. I kind of stayed in the jazz realm a little bit today. And this is an artist. She's a pianist. Her name is Hiromi. A really cool Japanese pianist, but went to Berkeley. I believe she went to the Berkeley School of Music. And this is a song of hers called Haze. You're listening to KSUU Thunder 91.1.
[00:34:13] OK. Well, welcome back to the A.P.E.X Hour. This is Lynn Vartan and I you're listening KSUU Thunder 91.1. That artist is Hiromi just a brilliant pianist. Definitely. Check her out. And that song was called Haze. I'm joined in the studio today. We are just having all kinds of fun and I am learning a ton about politics, about law, about Washington, about lobbying.
[00:34:43] And I'm joined in the studio with Steve Blumenthal and Doug Bennett. Welcome back. And as Steve, we were getting into talking about some of the things that that you've really experienced on campuses and I'd love for you to share a bit about I. You were talking about your experience here and how it relates to other experiences that you had as a student.
[00:35:06] Oh, thank you. I will be honest with you. I had never heard of the Southern Utah University before. My friend Professor Bennett came to work here, and that's very unfortunate. I have had the privilege now of of walking around the campuses and meeting professors and meeting students. I had the privilege of giving the apex presentation and I've been talking to people in response to it and expanding upon it. And I am impressed beyond my ability to put it in words. I'd like to congratulate you on a community that you've developed where excitement and enjoyment of the learning process seems to be a very, very popular way of moving about through the university community. I myself am a graduate who comes Hopkins University in Baltimore. Now, Hopkins is youth is National Lunch actually known for its its medical school? I was an undergraduate, and I will tell you that the experience that you're having here at LSU, you. And that is of a complete college education meeting people from different backgrounds, studying things you never thought you study, becoming interested in in activities and learning that you never thought you would or didn't know anything about. None of that exists at the Johns Hopkins. It was a glorified prep school for graduate school. You went to Johns Hopkins because you were going to go to law school or medical school, and that's pretty much what you did for four years. And it certainly was an educational experience, but it wasn't a very broadening experience. I want to encourage all the students who are listening to this to make use of every facility that is available at this college, every opportunity, every activity that you can fit into your academic schedule, and particularly interacting with your professors who strike me as having a wonderful balance of practical experience, as well as some substantive expertise in their in their fields. I want to wish once again, all of you nothing but the best of luck in your school and ultimately in your careers. And thank you very much for having me here today.
[00:37:22] Thank you so much, Steve. That that means so much to me. And I know to Doug and to all of us here and we really appreciate your kind words.
[00:37:29] And it is really uplifting and bolstering to us in the trenches here on a day to day basis. And we are proud of what we're accomplishing. And thank you for your recognition of it. And we are so grateful for the time that you've spent with us here. And and thank you for your kind words about what we're doing. I appreciate it, too.
[00:37:51] And for any of you who are interested in the A.P.E.X Hour events, even though this is our last event of the season, you definitely can check out our web page, which is suu.edu/apex, which has all of our archive pages for four years going back and. Each page has the podcast episode. Often has the video of the event has photos from the event. We really encourage you to interact with that. And if you're listening to this podcast, spread the word. Tell your friends I get those episodes downloaded so that we can get. Get the word out even more of what we're doing here at SMU and any students listening to the podcast or listening live. If you're looking for an extra crap class credit, there is a class and it's there's no prerequisite. It's also open to community members, anybody listening who wants kind of a codified way to interact with events on campus. And there's a course it's called Passport to sue you. And the course number is CEO and the 2010. And it's a one unit pass fail course where you can come and attend all the apex events and really interact with these speakers. So check those things out. Well, I always have one parting question for everyone. All of our guests.
[00:39:12] And it's really. Sort of just a fun thing, which I'd love for you both to chime in on, and that is what's turning you on this week. And we have had everything from people watching the Beverly Hills Housewives. Is there a thing that's turning them on to an intense book that they've read to a new album that they're listening to to a favorite food? So I would love to ask you both what is turning you on this week.
[00:39:38] So, Doug, we're going to start with you. All right. All right. Doug Bennett, what is turning you on this week?
[00:39:44] Well, what turned me on this week was the chance to welcome my friend Steve Blumenthal to assure you he and I have talked about his coming to campus for some time. And we have Mary and I have been looking forward to it. And Steve has been working very hard on it. And I've learned that despite preparation and anticipation, sometimes something can go wrong. And. All right, you've done throws everything off. And today, everything went superbly. So I'm grateful to you. Oh, great. Mary and I'm especially grateful to Steve for a wonderful day. And I hope our students learn something.
[00:40:22] Oh, that's great. I know they did. The comments have been incredible. So it's been an absolute joy. Yes, they've been good. And I've been very pleased. Oh, well, thank you for your collaboration. This has been an ongoing collaboration with the Leavitt Center. And we'll hope to continue Ed, in years to come. I'd love it. Sounds great.
[00:40:38] Yes. And Steve Blumenthal, tell me, what is turning you on this week?
[00:40:43] Well, I'll tell you what turned me on and I don't know if he's listening, but I had the wonderful occasion to have dinner with Professor Jacobson and Professor Bennett. And I had in the past had one conversation with Professor Jacobson. So I know he's going to be enjoyable. And in fact, it was a ball that we share military experience, but that that's really stretching it to claim that because current Jacobson was a full bird colonel and I was what's called an E5. I was a sergeant, but I was a specialist because I was a medic. So I wasn't even a sergeant. Oh, and I tried to explain to Colonel Jacobson one time that I was the worst soldier in the army who didn't go to the brig. That one below me went to the brig. And I said to, I admire you professional military men, because I know I was the second least military man in the army. The first least military man was my father. And the reason he got the number one spot is he was an officer and I was an enlisted man. Well, Colonel Jacobson is a wealth of of information about the institution of the American military. I believe he was head of the JAG Corps, ugly advocate general's corps. So he's both a lawyer and a soldier. And I will tell you, for those who you have not yet served, you don't get to get those eagles, those in those rank insignia of a full colonel accidentally, OK, in the the military, the army will weed you out long before you get up to that rank. If you're not not if you don't pack the gear, as they say. So once again, I want to encourage you to interact with your professors. And and I just had a wonderful time with Colonel Jacobson and and Professor Bennett.
[00:42:38] Well, thank you. Your openness and your sense of humor and your willingness to interact with us and really share deeply with us has been so appreciated. All right. Well, that brings us to the end of our show and the end of our season. So the A.P.E.X Hour will continue. There'll be some best doves that play. But we will be back live on air in January and we'll start our spring season. So thank you so much, everyone. And have a wonderful holiday season and we'll see you back in 2020.
[00:43:10] Thanks so much for listening to the A.P.E.X Hour here on KSUU Thunder 91.1. Come find us again next Thursday at 3 p.m. for more conversations with the visiting guests at Southern Utah University. And new music to discover for your next playlist. And in the meantime, we would love to see you at our events on campus to find out more. Check out suu.edu/apex. Until next week, This is Lynn Vartan saying goodbye from the A.P.E.X Hour. Here on Thunder 91.1.
