[00:00:01] You're listening to the A.P.E.X Hour on KSUU Thunder 91.1. In this show, you get more personal time with the guests who visit Southern Utah University from all over, learning more about their stories and opinions beyond their presentation on stage. We will also give you some new music to listen to and hope to turn you on to some new sounds and new genres. You can find us here every Thursday at 3:00 p.m. or on the web at suu.edu/apex. But for now, welcome to this week's show. Here on Thunder 91.1.
[00:00:43] All right. Well, welcome in, everyone. This is Lynn Vartan, you're listening to KSUU Thunder 91.1. As you know, we have a great time with the guests on stage. And I am so honored and excited to get the conversation going today. We have had such a powerful and beautifully emotional few days with Dr. Carolyn McKinstry, so I'd love to welcome into the studio Carolyn McKinstry.
[00:01:15] Hi, Lynn. Thank you. What a beautiful welcome.
[00:01:19] Well, it has been just an honor. And we have all just been commenting about the peace and love, the calm that we feel as we've been talking to you and getting to know you. So thank you for sharing your time with us on campus.
[00:01:35] Thank you, Lynn. Thank you for the invitation.
[00:01:38] Well, for anyone who may not be familiar with her story, rather than me tell it, I think, in your words, it's just incredible. So if you don't mind sharing with our audience a little bit of your personal story that has brought you here today with us.
[00:01:58] OK. This story takes place in Birmingham, Alabama. The date is September 15th, 1963. A bomb explodes at the 16th Street Baptist Church at 10:22 A.M.. And this bomb has been referred to as the bomb that was heard around the world. It was in fact, a noise that got everybody's attention. We had people responding and reacting all over the world to the death of four little girls who were, had come to Sunday school and were in church to worship. It was Sunday Youth Day. And the lesson for that day of all this, of all things, a love that forgives. And so I think we could call this story the bomb that was heard around the world.
[00:03:02] Thank you. And you have written a book. We want to make sure to let our listeners know. That's titled While The World Watched. And I, I just ate it up. I read it. And it begins with a recollection of many dates of our civil rights history in the United States. And then goes in and out of parts from Dr. Martin Luther King speeches to your experiences and memories that day and in the years to come. And what I wanted to ask you is a little bit more about the church and congregation. You are still a member and active with the church today.
[00:03:47] I am not a member today as of about five years ago, but I am still very active in that church. I'm there for so many things. I could name a few. But my tie will always be there. I had been there since I was 2 years old. So I think I'm a permanent fixture there. But I connected with another church because I received an opportunity. So yeah.
[00:04:14] And you were part of the restoration process of the church?
[00:04:18] I was. The restoration process was an effort to what we called stabilize the building. I came in one day and we had beautiful mushrooms growing out of the carpet. That was due to a leakage problem that we had in the church. And I came in with the local president from Birmingham Southern College, Dr. Neal Berte. And both of us knew that something had to be done right away, not just because of the mushrooms, but just because of the historic stature of the church. So we mounted this restoration campaign and the campaign actually covered almost 10 years because we had people that pledged money over a three and four year period. And at the end of the 10 years, we had all collected close to four million dollars now and we had worked with three different architects to make sure we were doing what needed to be done and sort of properly managing the money and so forth. And it was a labor of love.
[00:05:29] And in the book, I read that that there are two things that remain the same from that time. The clock is still the same and that the bathroom is still the same. I think that was in the book. Do you remember that being the case?
[00:05:49] Well, when the bomb exploded, the clocks stopped at 10:22. So that was really how we knew the time. But we do still have that clock. It's not running, but it's in a public place where everyone can see it when they come in. The bathroom was sealed. When the architects came in, we felt that, if we did not, if we left the bathroom pretty much in the same place intact, that each time someone entered that space, they would be reminded of what had happened, the horrible tragedy there. So the entire room was sealed off. It's not even possible to walk in the space where the girls were and the bathroom was moved to a different floor.
[00:06:46] I see. I know that your faith is a huge part of your life now and was growing up. Can you talk a little bit about your history and your faith with your family and and how that's evolved over the years?
[00:07:08] Yes, I think my initial recognition of how much I loved the work, the ministerial type of work probably happened when I would visit my grandparents. They were what one might call local missionaries. They were always doing things in the community. If someone was sick or in trouble. They were always there to lend a hand if they could or to get information if they could. My grandfather taught school, but he also pastored to churches and in the summers we would travel to all of the neighboring towns and we would do two weeks of vacation Bible school. And I think I loved one greeting the people. They were always happy to see us coming. I loved working with them. And Vacation Bible School is just what it says. It's all about the Bible. You learn the various passages, you do art work, you do crafts. And at the end of two weeks, you do a program. Between he and my grandmother. I was always involved in something in the summers with them and I just came to love the work. So when my parents moved to Birmingham, I just gravitated right into 16th Street Church and picked up where I left off and became the church secretary. And at the age of seventh grade, I think I might have been about to way up there, but I would do the Sunday school summary, anything they would allow me to do, really. And they were a wonderful place to learn. The church was to learn and to grow. They would let you assume as much responsibility as you were willing to take on. So I think my love of all of that probably came about in that way.
[00:09:10] One of the cornerstones of your faith we've been talking about is, is forgiveness. And that has become a cornerstone of much of the work and the speaking and sharing that you do. And I would love for you to maybe talk about forgiveness as you see it and and share with our listeners that, if you might.
[00:09:30] OK. Well, forgiveness allows us to free ourselves from whatever trauma we may have suffered, whatever things have happened in our lives. It's difficult to hold on to painful things. And when we try to do that, damages happen that we can't began to measure. But we free ourselves. We free our spirits when we forgive those who have done something that really has alienated our conversations, our relationship, or they've done something that offended us or hurt us in any way. The forgiveness is really for you. There are many times when people hurt us and they don't request forgiveness, especially for those times. We learn that forgiveness is really for you, the wounded person. We have so many wounded people in our country. There are so many aspects of relationships that are broken. But if we can come to understand that in this journey, on this walk, we likely will hurt others and others will hurt us, and most times not intentionally. So to free ourselves, to free our spirits in such a way that they are free to continue moving forward, to free to begin loving other people, all of the things that come from the spirit. In order to do that, we we relinquish that animus and hatred and whatever kinds of things we feel toward that person, that situation works really well when the person themselves requests that forgiveness. But even when they don't. Because we are forgiven, then we are bound or we are charged to forgive as well. And so that's what we do.
[00:11:37] Thank you so much for that. It's already time for our first musical break.
[00:11:42] And I chose I have three songs to play today. And I was telling Carolyn my experiences as a performer with Wadada Leo Smith. So I was looking for something in his output that I might play today. And I found "Love Supreme", which originally was a John Coltrane very famous tune. But this is a quite unusual version of it. This is "Love Supreme" and in parentheses, he puts "For John Coltrane". And it's sort of transcribed, if you will, by Wadada Leo Smith. You're listening to KSUU Thunder 91.1.
[00:16:20] All right. Well, welcome back, everyone. That song was famously known as "A Love Supreme", originally a John Coltrane tune, but that particular version is is just titled "Love Supreme" and then in parentheses "For John Coltrane" and the artist who's a trumpet player on that is Wadada Leo Smith. Just as a reminder, anybody who's interested in the music that I play on the show, you can check out the playlist that's on the Web site, which is suu.edu/apex. And there's a public Spotify playlist on there that's played on A.P.E.X Hour. So feel free to check it out. But I'm back to the conversation now with Carolyn McKinstry. Welcome back in.
[00:17:08] Thank you.
[00:17:09] One of the things I'd love to ask you about now is you have mentioned a bit of surprise in that as you tell your story to different campuses and that you've experienced that here and other places, that that you're a bit surprised that students aren't familiar with some of these things that happened. So I wondered if you could speak to how we can help keep these emotional experiences close at hand so that we learn and continue to heal and improve upon our past and also keep it on the forefront. I hesitate to use the word relevant, but keep it relevant to today's students. Do you have any comments or thoughts on that?
[00:18:04] I do. There are so many references historically to to the various histories that we've seen, the various events that have happened in our lifetime. And every experience is unique for this particular experience. When we talk about African-Americans, if we wanted to know the entire story to start at the beginning and sort of work our way forward, it is a 400 year history. So it would be difficult to do. For those who read The New York Times, in August of last year, 2019, it's the August 18th issue. There was a project that was begun. It was called the 2019 I'm sorry, 1619 project. And from 1619 to 2019 is 400 years. So Hannah Nikole Jones, with the blessing of The New York Times, began this project and she intended to do exactly what you're describing, to work her way forward from the historical links of African-Americans up until today currently. It's a huge history, and that's probably true of all cultures. We have such a diversity of cultures in our country and each one has its own history. So Hannah Nikole sort of challenged us to look at everybody's culture and look at all of the good things that were brought to us from those cultures. She started with the African-American culture. So to talk about it, my event is one moment in time, a horrific moment in time. But if we started at the beginning in 1619, the story would likely be better understood. And even in terms of relationships today, all of our stories, if they were brought forward, would be better understood. Where I've had the opportunity to recommend things, I have recommended that students should study world cultures, that they should also study world religions, because we do have indeed a melting pot in the country. And so study and learning for the purpose of just understanding how we came to be who we are. There are so many things that we love about all of the cultures that are represented in this country. And I just think it would go a long way for everyone, for us to express that love. Whether we're talking about the food, the clothing that's unique to that culture, the historical aspects of it. Anything that we learned, the religious aspects allows us to see more of and to know more of the people that are part of this great mixing bowl, our country.
[00:21:24] That reminded me of another question that I wanted to ask you. You mentioned studying world cultures and students. And in a few the conversations you've mentioned a book or two that that were are particularly powerful or meaningful to you. And I wondered if you might share a few titles that you think are particularly important for for young people or are really front for any of us, for that matter, that are are particularly powerful and meaningful to you. And you'd like to maybe share as everybody should read this?
[00:21:59] Well, everyone should definitely read Desmond. Archbishop Desmond Tutu's book "No Future Without Forgiveness". I think the title speaks for itself. And he talks in this book about the transition from South African apartheid to a free country. And he also lays out through the Kairos document how they were able to hear everyone's story and sort of heal the wounds and so forth. So I do think it's a great book. It's a great read. It's not a heavy book. And maybe two or three hundred pages, if I remember correctly. One of my favorite books in all the world. And this author actually has a series of books. It's Arnold Toynbee. Arnold Toynbee was one of our great historians and he studied all of the civilizations that had existed on the face of the earth. And what he said to us was that he could document with pretty good certainty that 28 civilizations had once existed on the face of the earth. Of those 28, only four remained. And then he says the civilizations that died out was not due to war. It was not due to famine. And it was not because of disease. It was their failure to adapt to the changing environment around them. Whether that changing environment had to do with soil in rotation or had to do with diversity of people changing. They just were not able to adapt to anything different from what they had lived. And it was those countries, he said, that suffered the most and they died out. So this is just a, I love this book because it says to us that we need all of us and that when things change, it can be for the better for everybody. When we ignore the changes or when we ignore that, we need to change, it doesn't work out as well as it could. So, you know, the book paints a more devastating picture, but it really makes the case for evolving change, ever evolving change and being receptive to ever evolving change.
[00:24:42] Can you tell me again the name of the author and the title if you remember?
[00:24:46] The author's name is Arnold, A-R-N-O-L-D, Toynbee, T-O-Y-N-B-E-E. And it is the history of civilizations.
[00:24:58] Thank you. I don't know that author. I'm gonna check it out. I love it. Yeah, that's great.
[00:25:03] One of my favorites.
[00:25:04] So cool. One other thing that I'd love to ask you about is reconciliation. Is the term, what does it mean to you? What do you want people to know? Because I think that sometimes there can be confusion about what that word means. And I would love to hear what you, what it means to you.
[00:25:33] Well, you know, initially, I think the reaction to the word reconciliation is that we are talking about reconciling black and white people. Now, during my years growing up, everything actually was black and white. It's written that way. It's stated that way. We live that way. And so most people think that you are talking about racial reconciliation. But in my church, in the Bible that we use, which is the just the normal King James version, we find that term first occurring under Paul, the Apostle Paul and Second Corinthians. Fifth chapter of Paul says that the message of reconciliation are the responsibility of messaging or reconciliation is given to his church. And so ideally the church should be promoting that message. Paul reminds us that reconciliation is God's work and that the reconciling first occurs between us and God.
[00:26:48] Right. Right.
[00:26:49] And then after that, the reconciliation happens between us and our neighbor, whoever that happens to be. The symbol for that reconciliation is the cross, the vertical part of the cross representing God in the horizontal, us, each other. And so it's difficult to have one without the other. And so but again, the messaging has been given to the church. And so sometimes it's difficult to understand the issues or the problems that we might see in society. But quite often that message has not been frequent enough in the churches. So one of the things that I was working on during the time I was in New York was the reconciliation calendar. And I wanted it to be a 52 week calendar. And I used a reconciliation type passage for each week. And the idea was that if we feel our minds were reconciliatory type of ideas and thoughts, that we become a reconciliatory type person. So, for example, for the month, the first week in January, you might see something like let your words be seasoned with grace. And I think that's pretty easy to understand. It's from the Psalms. But, you know, if we spoke with everyone that way, we we just couldn't have any type of issues between us. You know, if we chose those words very carefully and seasoned them with grace. So that's an example of what the calendar looks like.
[00:28:39] Yeah, that's incredible. Thank you for that. I think that that's the most beautiful explanation of reconciliation that I've heard. And it reiterates something else that you've been talking about, which is how you approach others. And you have shared that that your approach to others is, you know, deep. And so, I mean, and I wonder if you could rearticulate that for us on the air, because it's just such an incredible sentiment.
[00:29:10] Well, there is a law of reaping and sowing and biblical law. And the law suggests that whatever we put, whatever we plant, we can use that word. But, you know, you can make it analogous to if we plant apple seeds in the ground, we receive apples. But into the universe, if we plant kind words, if we plant words seasoned with grace. If we plant words, words filled with warmth and love that the universe will return those words unto us or return the same type of feelings and actions toward us. It is to say what we place there, what we give is what we receive. I found that to be true in settings where I knew nothing, absolutely nothing about the people. I just found that however I approach them, if I came in love, if I came in good faith, if I came with grace, that was exactly what I received in return.
[00:30:18] That brings another mind to a story I would love for you to perhaps share. You had a very special time in Ireland and you've been sharing that story with us. And I wondered if you might share that, because I think that's another example of love given in love returned.
[00:30:37] Well, my Ireland story is certainly one of my favorite stories. I had an opportunity to go to Ireland and I visited a lot of places. But my final destination or stop was at the Benedictine Monastery in Dublin. And the first surprise was, was that they really do live in castles, real castles with bats flying around my car. And so, yeah, that was a bit a bit scary. But the monks bear a mark of seriousness and holiness that just keeps you at attention.
[00:31:20] The entire time that you're there, they are not people that normally talk or converse with you, but if something is placed on their heart, in their spirit, they will send for you and have that conversation with you. And so I did have a conversation. The oldest momk there was ninety nine years old now, and he asked where I was from. And when I said Birmingham, Alabama, I could see the concern or the angst in his face. And so we sat and talked and he asked me how I was. And we talked about the notion of loving everyone is our brother, you know, saying everyone is our brother. We also talked about the idea that we are all created in the image of God. The Book of Malachi says, by one God were we are created. And we were all created in his image so that he reiterated that several times over and over again. He went on to say that monks themselves are people that God has called out of society to pray 24/7, that the sand nature is has advanced to a degree and in all over the world, not just here, but all over the world, has advanced to a degree that someone is needed to pray 20 every second of every day for something that's going on. So the monks felt the call for this prayer. And many of them were working in the world, out in the world as doctors and engineers. You know, there was a guy there that had set up a water system for them. But the monks believe that it is their job to pray 24/7 and that anyone they encounter that they need to, you know, see them as we all as we see everyone in the image of God. He iterated at that point a lot as well. The fact that we all are created in the image of God. And this is how we must see our brothers and sisters. And they believe that each time God allows them to encounter someone, that it is potentially a test. And he said to me, we don't ever want to be guilty of failing our tests. So we treat everyone as though they God is hidden in that image because God is in the image of all of us. So you really don't know. And he said, but we can't go wrong if we see everyone the way we see God and see them in his image. So I've tried to live that and I passed it on to so many people. But I think it is something worth trying to live by.
[00:34:20] Yes, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that story with us. It's time for another song.
[00:34:26] I have another artist who I love and her voice is absolutely incredible. And that is Cassandra Wilson. She is recorded so many things over. I mean, so many different albums. If you haven't heard her version of The Little Drummer Boy, it is my favorite. It's really incredible. The song that I'm in and start playing for you now is called "Harvest Moon", and it's from one of her older albums. But this is Cassandra Wilson. You're listening to the A.P.E.X Hour, KSUU Thunder 91.1.
[00:39:24] All right. Well, welcome back, everyone. That song was called "Harvest Moon", and the artist is Cassandra Wilson. She has a ton of albums and I just loved that. That slinky voice of hers is just incredible. But we're back on the air and this is the A.P.E.X Hour, KSUU Thunder 91.1. I'm here in the studio with Dr. Carolyn McKinstry. And we're talking about her experiences, which many of which are in her book, which is called While the World Watched. And it's available either through a publisher or also you can find it wherever you find books on Amazon. And it's just an incredible story about her life, but also the civil rights movement in America and lessons learned from that time. So welcome back, Carolyn.
[00:40:18] Thank you.
[00:40:20] Well, one of the things that some of the students have asked about and the things we've been talking about is, is where are we now and where we going? And I'd love for you to maybe comment on as much as you'd like to comment on where you think we are now and where we're going or any advice or thoughts you have about the current state of affairs.
[00:40:49] Yeah, this, this one is close to my heart. This question, it's close to my heart. I do believe that we're in a difficult place right now. We have a lot of tension throughout the country. We're growing. Our diversity is growing. The United States census has told us that by the year 2040, there will be no majority minority.
[00:41:19] And you can reverse that and say no minority majority.
[00:41:23] Right.
[00:41:24] That just means that if we're going to accomplish anything, that we have to work together. Whatever diversity is represented in the country, African-Americans, Hispanic, Americans, Italian, all of the different groups that we have. We will be 20 percent of the major groups, each one. And if we have not learned to work together and I say learn to do something as simple as live next door to someone who's different from you without stressing. We just haven't learned to do that, to attend school with someone who's different from you or work with someone in this diverse crowd. We will have a real issue here in our country. We don't have to. I think when I visit various schools, what I can see is that young people are OK with each other. You know, young people get it. And if we can continue the direction that our young people are going, they are not only concerned about climate change, they're concerned about some of the hateful rhetoric and things that they see. But they set a wonderful example for us. If you remember the students at Parkland, Florida, where they marching for issues that concern them, we have students that are concerned about the climate issue and they're making their voices heard all over the country. We probably don't think about this, but at some point they will inherit this country. And they are, they're wise to be involved right now. And my admonishment would be just that we support them in every good way that we can and that we also do our part to make this country one that they can be proud of when we are gone, one that they can live in and be happy when we're gone, and one that we'll have fond memories for them when we're gone.
[00:43:37] One of our students at lunch, one of our students from Rwanda was asking what to do, and it was a very sort of poignant question and very honest, what to do when it when you when it's difficult to forgive, when you can't forgive. And I know that your history is in nonviolence. I mean, you have been in that for decades. So what advice to young people or perhaps to people who are opening their mind right now, you know? But what to do when people don't want to receive the message or when you don't feel like you can forgive? How do you get to that point?
[00:44:28] I think many of us have had situations where we felt that we could never forgive what had happened. The situation itself or the individual perhaps that precipitated that situation. But forgiveness is primarily for us. It allows us to free ourselves from the venom, the animus, the things that happen when we allow ourselves to hate people. I have been in meetings and in gatherings where everyone in the audience was invited to bring something that they had carried around ill feelings for something or someone that had hurt them. They were invited to bring that down front, write it on a piece of paper, or lay it down, forever lay it down. And then the prayers were offered. Conversation was often about moving forward. After that, it is important to know how to put things behind us. It really is. And a lot of the mental health issues evolve from things that people have not able being able to make their peace with. So if we just remember, if we just understand that forgiveness is for the person that is for giving, it is to free their spirit so that they are free to keep living and to keep living well, in a happy way.
[00:46:05] Thank you. As we talk about nonviolence and forgiveness, I am remembering in your, in your book, your time with Dr. Martin Luther King and specifically that I remember you telling in the book the story of the first time you heard him in your church. I wonder if you might share a bit of your experience with him and and what that taught you.
[00:46:32] Well, when I listen to the first speech and actually subsequent speeches, what I came to understand was that most of his speeches were a cross between our founding documents and the Bible that most of us use in this country. Our founding documents were apparently written by people who were very deep in theology. And they have beautiful concepts in there. You know, they have in terms of making America the best it could be there are some wonderful things written, so what I admired I think most about him was just that he was familiar with the promises of this country by way of the documents, the Bible. Life in general. And he reminded America that, you know, this is what you say. I'm asking you to be true to what you said. And there's nothing like having, I'll call it, the evidence. So at one time, our country was really thinking wonderful thoughts about everything, the direction they were headed and so forth. And I think we want to all return to that season. I think that's what he was inviting us to do, return. Did you forget what you've written? Let's return to what you said. Let's remember what you said biblically and in the founding documents that you merge the biblical theology and too, so it was listening to him. You knew that you were listening to a special voice. And there are books that I have and articles that I have received where he is called America's Prophet in the books and the idea or the thought being that he was sent to help us kind of remember some of the things that we were should be about in this life. Much like the children are doing now. One of my favorite passages is in Isaiah. And that passage speaks about children leading us. There will come a time when lambs will walk with lions. Children will lead us and none will do harm. No one will harm anyone else because we will have become full of the knowledge of the Almighty. So I look forward to that time. I think King was reminding us in attempting to sort of usher us back in place in line to that time. That and the young children that we're hearing now, I think will get us there.
[00:49:21] Yeah. Thank you. You were inspired by him, and many others, I'm sure. And now you are such an inspiration to others. I'm wondering who inspires you now. I know we've been talking about the children. Is there anybody out there that that we should know about that that you find particularly inspiring right now?
[00:49:48] There are a lot of people that that I admire. I think my greatest admiration right now is for all of the young people I see coming forward. I think the latest one that I observed was on the cover of Time magazine. I don't recall her name, but she was pleading for us to pay attention to the ecology, to the land, to the things that were happening around us.
[00:50:18] Right. I read it. I think you mean Greta Thunberg.
[00:50:21] Yeah. Yes. That's the young lady. And even in Parkland, I took note when the young man said the question is, what kind of country do you want? He was really speaking initially about gun control, but he said it boils down to that question. What kind of country do you want? I think they know what kind of country they want. They express themselves so very well. They articulate their position so very well. And so I'm just kind of high on the young people right now. I'm so proud of their messaging, of their tenacity, their strength and just all that they're doing.
[00:51:02] That's great. I mean, that's quite a message of hope. I mean, if the future and the young people of our future are inspiring you, then that should give us all hope, I think.
[00:51:13] It should give us all hope. And it really looks pretty good, don't you think? We're here.
[00:51:18] Yeah, we can.
[00:51:19] We can be excited about what we're hearing.
[00:51:22] I want to mention your book one more time. It's called While the World Watched. And you absolutely have to check this out. The author who's in the studio with me is Carolyn McKinstry. And I understand that there may be another book on the way. Is that true?
[00:51:38] Well, I have two that I've been trying to complete. It's probably not a good idea to work on two at the same time.
[00:51:45] That's quite a feat.
[00:51:46] But I promise I will let you know as soon as they are completed. I have other people calling about those books as well. But you will be the first to know. That's a promise to you and Kay'ce.
[00:51:58] Thank you. Please let me know.
[00:52:00] I will.
[00:52:01] I usually, we're already amazingly out of time, but I usually end with one sort of playful question about like what you like to do in your off time, you know, and and so we joke, what's turning you on this week? And it could be, it could be anything. It could be a TV show. It could be a book. It could be a movie that you love. It could be music. It could be a food. It could be anything in the world. It could be as serious or as silly as you like. So I present to you the question, Carolyn McKinstry, what's turning you on this week?
[00:52:39] Oh, gosh, that's difficult. But I'll tell you what. When we were having lunch, someone mentioned the movie Doctor Zhivago. It's my favorite of all time. And I think that movie was done when I was in high school. So I can't count, probably into the hundreds, the number of times that I've seen it. But it's a beautiful love story shot in Russia. And any time, it doesn't matter what I'm doing, when they announce that it's coming on again, I just push everything to the side. And that's probably one of my favorite things to do. The old movies and of course, my walking that allows me to just clear my head and think and envision all good things.
[00:53:28] So those are fantastic answers. I love it. And with that, we'll close our conversation for the week. I hate to say goodbye. I could keep talking to you for hours. And I so enjoyed that, the peace and love and the affection that you've been sharing with me and with our campus this week. Thank you so much. The book is called While the World Watched, authored by Carolyn McKinstry. Carolyn, thank you for everything this week.
[00:54:01] Thank you. It's my pleasure.
[00:54:03] All right. Well, that's it for the A.P.E.X Hour. Thanks, everyone.
[00:54:09] Thanks so much for listening to the A.P.E.X Hour here on KSUU Thunder 91.1. Come find us again next Thursday at 3 p.m. for more conversations with the visiting guests at Southern Utah University and new music to discover for your next playlist. And in the meantime, we would love to see you at our events on campus to find out more. Check out suu.edu/apex. Until next week, this is Lynn Vartan saying goodbye from the A.P.E.X Hour, here on Thunder 91.1.
